Legacy Media vs New Media - Jacob Hess, Deseret News

Jacob Hess and Greg discuss the evolution and disparity between legacy and new, alternative media. Where are people sourcing their news? Do we create news "silos" and feedback loops?

Fact-Checking is just another layer of bias.

We need to step up in the information age and increase our discernment. That may be the lesson of our time.

Help Jacob's family and purchase Train My Puppy - https://www.trainyourpuppygame.com/

Jacob's New Book, The Practice Of Stillness - https://www.deseretbook.com/product/P6070733.html

in this episode we bring on Jacob Hess a friend of mine staff writer for the Deseret News we're talking about old
media versus New Media or as Jacob would say what what is the Synergy here
between the two of these things how do they work together what is the benefit of having both a legacy type of media
and a new alternative media where are things going and can these old and new
Medias work together now this episode is brought to you by go and do travel I am the official spokesman for go and do
travel and I want to talk specifically about the Journey of wisdom cruise this Cruise goes throughout Greece we hit the
Isles of Greece including pmos where John the Revelator received his Revelations we go to Turkey and Ephesus
where Paul taught and John apparently took care of the mother of Jesus Mary
then we also go to Cairo and Memphis Egypt where Abraham and Joseph of Egypt
and Moses all live three different continents one Cruise focusing on the
wisdom of the Gospel of Jesus Christ versus well the philosophies of men journey of wisdom is September 12th
through 24th 2025 that's September 12th through 24th 2025 go to Quick media.com
cwic media.com go to trips and events at the top and scroll down to journey of
wisdom here we go [Music]
all right welcome to Quick show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we bring back my friend Jacob Hess from the Deseret News Jacob
how are you doing thanks for having me on Greg Merry Christmas to you Merry Christmas hey speaking of Christmas
before we get started we're going to talk about the difference between Legacy Traditional media and New Media but
before we do that I want to talk just a little bit about uh what's going on with your family and a card game that you
have maybe a good idea for Christmas thanks Greg so um we have a
daughter who has had some issues with seizures since she was born in
March it's been a kind of a long medical Journey um I decided it would be good to
finish off this game I've been working on for a couple of years to help us cover some of the medical bills that
have been a little hard so this is the game train your
puppy so I've taught meditation classes mindfulness classes to people who are
stressed out of their minds teenagers and adults and people always ask well
how do you help kids how do you helps younger children you know there are a lot of children dealing with anxiety
depression anger issues so what the game does is everybody brings a stuffed
animal to the game and then you have uh you've got puppies with all the
different emotions and they take turns drawing the cards and then the game kind of leads
the family through a discussion that uh starts with the the
puppy like okay if your puppy's anxious or scared what are you g to do show us
with your stuffed animal and I give some guidance to parents or grandparents to say things
like would you get mad at your scared puppy would you yell at it would you try
to force your your puppy to not be scared and and kids are like no that
would be dumb so then the next thing becomes well what about when you're scared what do you
do and over and over you you you move from puppy to
person and eventually kids and hopefully even adults start to realize if we can
be compassionate patient tender in training a puppy dog we can do the same
thing with our minds I find a lot of people are just kind of victims you know tyrannized by
their minds like there's nothing I can do but the truth is that if we work with
our minds in in patient gentle ways we can move them in better Direction so
that's the purpose of the game awesome and yeah thanks for letting me share it a little bit okay and this is something
that can help you out I know you guys have got some medical bills and other things that have been going on with that so what we'll do is we'll put the the
link to the game in the description box so that people can go there and grab that maybe it's a good Christmas present
and maybe it's just something good to have that' be great oh I forgot to mention there's a 42-page parent guide
that have just put a lot of good tips and stuff okay for how to bring more Stillness and and silence into your home
and uh yeah I appreciate the to share it awesome okay all right so let's get into
this here we're talking about Legacy uh you know is Legacy now is that a pejorative for the
media if I say Legacy Media or mainstream Media or what what do
traditional would you prefer traditional uh it doesn't matter to me I don't even know where that word legacy came from
but yeah it is such an interesting moment I think this is a perfect place to have this
conversation so looking at things right now the the the sourcing of news is
changing very very quickly uh I believe that last year there was a Pew
research uh poll that went out that said uh they're down you know look looking at
the Nightly News that's what everybody used to do you going all the way back to like Walter kronite right you used to have about 15 million people a night in
the US that would watch the news the Nightly News and this was in the 80s we
now now down to 7 million even though we're much much larger as a country and
so the you know the the traditional sources that we've seen in the past are really changing quite a bit and of
course we see this with print media as well right and and not just print media but I would
say what print media has evolved to which is which is digital media there's
still a breaking away from that into other sources of of uh of of of news how
do you see this happening right now and where do you think it's going to go can you say that first number again how many
used to watch so 15 million in the 80s and so it's it's cut in half and now
yeah it's about cut in half right now regardless of having what are we at now 40 Years of of growth in the United
States well there's like um there's a positive spin on this
because I because I know that in in traditional media you'll hear sort of a lot of hand
ringing lamenting you know but another a
more optimistic spin is people are thinking for themselves
they're asking questions for themselves they're no longer just saying what does this expert say what does the science
say what does the doctor say what does the news broadcaster say they're they're saying huh that never made sense to me
or I've i h i felt unsettled about that and some of the non-traditional
media deserve some credit for that however vilified they they can be as a
whole you know like how dare people trust those voices right well sometimes
those voices have been the only places that people have heard questions about
the status quo and issues all the way back to the pandemic
to uh stuff internationally to domestic Pol politics I think alternative media I
don't know what I don't know what terms you prefer have played an important role in in trying to Foster some critical
thinking right instead of just what do the experts say what do the truth
tellers say well what if the truth tellers start to feel funny to us what
if they're like off then it seems a good thing that people are asking their own questions
well it seems to me also that when you look at you know like a a traditional media what happens is you start getting
a a fomenting of of a specific uh you know there's this
anything that starts to to to solidify over time ends up in a little
bit of a monolith right it ends up with you know who who are we going to hire
there going to be more people like us they're going to think like us there's an expectation of how we're going to
produce this and deliver this information who is our audience um perhaps some agenda that is
thrown in there and mixed in with that uh and and so I think that there's a new media to me with alternative media the
way I would look at it is it's a disruption It's A disruption of that
that fomenting of a narrative M that is a natural process that is a natural
process in anything to to to to uh U you know kind of solidify something where
you're you're you're bringing in more and more like-minded individuals tell me what you think about this Greg because I like that phrase New
Media old media alter it its position is sort of like in opposition and those are
the big categories right I wonder if the if the better
categorization uh goes something like this I between new and old media Legacy Media
Al turn to Media I find across both camps people that strike me as really
seeking for truth like genuine like I there are traditional voices at the New
York Times uh I don't always agree with them but I always want to hear what they have to say because I've come to trust
them even um you know I I know CNN gets beat up a lot they were the first one on the
ground there in Syria after the Assad regime fell and so I find like certain vo are
like wow I really trust that person to give it to me straight right and then there are voices in in alternative media
that similarly they're they seem to be seeking for truth and on both sides
there there are others that you're like ah they're they're pushing something
here that doesn't quite feel right right I'm kind of suggesting maybe um a
spectrum on on the degree to which either side is is really seeking
for truth it's been eye openening over the last year working at Deseret News to see how focused my editors are on making
sure we're saying things that are only factual right how do we know that's true
we've got to back that up if we can't I mean it it is intense and I really
appreciated that and that's the kind of thing that you don't always see if you can string together a
narrative that your audience is going to like with enough um tidbits that make it
feel factual then you you put it out there right do you think I I I agree with that
I mean I I certainly think that's true I think
but but I would push back a little bit and and and one place I would push back in is trust because there is a a there
is a declining level of trust in the media right now quite a bit actually I
in fact I'll I'll search for it here in a minute but I think I've got the numbers on that but it's it's uh you know it's it's decreased quite a bit and
I think that there's a couple things that we would look at number one I think again I think people do start to realize that there is kind of a narrative and
that doesn't mean that it's wrong all the time that doesn't mean it's it's evil or bad or anything else it's just
it's just a little maybe myopic right in in some ways and people so therefore are going to say well I don't trust this
you're you're going down these certain guidelines here within these guidelines and you don't want to step out of that
yeah uh on the other side it's I I think that again that idea of disruption comes into play um
where you have all of these call it uh
uh information Guerilla Warfare a little bit right and I know you're trying to keep me away from putting putting the
two sides against each other but it's kind of like okay we're goingon to poke a little bit here and there we're g to poke a little bit here and there and
we're finding problems with what is being stated and so you kind of have a a
check right because that's still the way it is right I mean traditional media still runs
everything the stories are broken through traditional media the everybody has reacted to to what is going on from from the AP
and the New York Times Etc right and so but there's now there's more of a push back and there's more checking on these
things yeah why do you think there is a lack of trust in in in the media right
now what what has caused that is that simply technology and and additional sources and and different views on these
things or is it because there was more of a narrative going on what a great question I think we're we're not too far
apart on this um too bad we could really go at it if we were to come up with something else but I think about um
think about a relationship with a friend or family member where you've lost trust right if we bring it back down to that
it's usually when there is a certain expectation okay I I really needed you
to be there for me in this or I was hoping to have your love and you weren't
there you let me down or you be betrayed me I think it's fair to say
there's there's a sense among viewers readers listeners of feeling
betrayed um in the last maybe two
decades I think you're right like like you were supposed to
give it to me straight you were supposed to just tell me the truth but there was something else going on you know there's
something else going on and now I'm not so sure um and I I also think we're we're
also in agreement Greg that it's actually impossible to come from a place of total
neutrality right every one of us every single platform every single content
creator has a particular standpoint a particular bias I think the problem
comes when that's not acknowledged and when it shapes the story that's
being told in a way that um I think you said it well like there are certain
parameters in which I'm not going to step outside of even if the truth points
outside of them right that's where I think the trust can be broken anytime
people feel like you're pushing something you're selling something
you're defending something and unwilling to act ask certain questions unwilling
to pursue the truth nothing but the
truth I think people get disappointed by that you know it's interesting you say
that I I uh I was looking at um to talk about sourcing I I I get most of my news
from X and and when I say x I don't mean what they put down on the on the sidebar and
what they're putting out there for me to look I mean I look that I might look at that here and there it's because of the people that I
follow right it's the organizations that I follow it's the individuals it's it's
and I'm running through there I am going to pick up most of my news from taking 30 minutes to run through my X feed and
and that I've built right so and and and I'm going to see what what's going on and and and and what is interesting to
me right that you built that you built by the way by picking certain people that you trust right like these are voes
I want to follow I imagine there might be some people you've picked that you don't trust that you just want to follow
anyway yeah or that I don't trust or that I don't agree with yeah there there there are several people that uh you
know I'll give you an example I I I uh I am one one of the one of the sources I
go to is the Atlantic right if I'm looking for a good piece to read on something I'm going to go to the Atlantic even though I probably am not
going to agree often times with what they're writing MH because to me the writers there are usually going to be
intelligent they're going to do their background they're they're not just knee-jerk reactions uh I may not agree with that
but now I'm gonna understand where they're coming from yeah that's great on the issue right I want that Source right
but what you're saying there is or what I'm getting back to is I can go on to
Facebook or I can go on to uh um YouTube or or anything any of the
other social media U platforms outside of X and I'm going to get often times a
little check down below a topic that's going to tell me a little bit about
well this topic is on you know whether it's abortion or it's the masks or it's
whatever else right it's there's there's going to be a little something down there and it's always on one side it's
always on one side but if I go to x it's almost always on the other side now yeah
right so you've got this there there's this new it's interesting because you've got this narrative out there that's
going to be given even in social media where you've got this th this uh uh you
know bringing together of all of this information together there is a
siphoning of of an agenda to me that still comes around right and and and
it's and so that makes it difficult I went to chat GPT before today before our our our
interview here just to ask a couple questions and it's the same thing it's going to give me it's going to give me
its angle it's it's I because I went to Gro which is on X and it gave me a very
different angle so okay can I can I suggest one more positive spin to this
sure um if we're living in a world where we're all just waiting for someone else
to tell us what is true it's easy to get
lazy right and I I think there could be something positive in that people are
having to they're being forced to wrestle inside themselves with how do I really
know it's true even the Visual Evidence now I had somebody other day say I don't trust what I see because of AI yeah I
see a video even that that used to be the gold standard is now like how do I even know that that's real right maybe
now bringing the the faith angle into this maybe that pushes people to kind of
how do we know how can I know something for sure and of course from a from a
spiritual perspective you and I have common cause and saying there there is a particular way
we can know through spiritual means through peace through Joy through confirmation
directly from God what is true right and we can even go beyond that and say from
our shared Faith tradition wherever truth exists that's our religion
according to Brigham Young so we don't have to be scared if it's coming from One Source or the other right you
mentioned the Atlantic you know some people can be horrified you still read that or this and it's like wherever
truth exists we can welcome it right and that's where the war between different
media sources doesn't necessarily have to happen we can appreciate good and truth wherever it's come from and we can
also be Discerning when when we're being um LED Along by by someone who may
not be out for the full truth yeah that's a good point so it's almost like an evolution of of discernment that is
required especially in the west right where you're you're getting bombarded with all of this information how do you you you've got to
up your game right you have to up your game or or because if you're going to be
plugged into things um there's there's there's an awful lot
of propaganda there's an awful lot of narrative um and there's just a lot of
information coming through what are you going to think about this why do you think this you have you really do have
to think for yourself and and that's a welcome question I mean that's some
that's a rich conversation and that's that's an ancient conversation right that's a conversation
that um as Believers we love to have that conversation and Greg I think that's
something people have appreciated About You by the way backtracking a bit you've been able to ask certain questions right
that are challenging you've tried to do it in a way that is respectful but
um that is something I think we should be appreciative of non-traditional or or
New Media sources they've been willing to ask questions others are not asking and Legacy Traditional media
probably should have been doing that right so you get comfortable you get comfortable and
um I think I think that conversation about what is true and how do we know
what's true is something that we have some things to offer people
because truth Joseph Smith said truth tastes good that feels different than
than deception right I was on this project with Michael Peterson last year
he did all this research on kind of the what led up to this thing called the CES
letter and one of the common experiences for people when they read the Cs letter
was nausea feeling horror feeling anger
all of a sudden questioning these things that they used to rely on right
from a spiritual lens no matter what you've read if you're feeling anger
disgust nausea Newfound hatred over something you're
reading you got to ask that question is this really something I should be trusting this story or this angle or
this this source of news yeah I think uh again I mean going
back to the idea of discernment how do how are you going to discern now here's another problem though and that is you know I talk about bringing I'm thinking
I'm losing the the word here that I'm looking and trying to pull in aggregating aggregating all my news onto
X right so I've got all these things but it's still my choice right so so a lot of what's been
brought up before I think it was Jonathan height that talked about creating silos of of
information and so you're all of a sudden you you if you're not careful right if I want to push the
Atlantic out right if I want to you know all of a sudden all I'm doing is creating a feedback loop yeah right they're they're
preaching to the choir I'm preaching back we all feel good about ourselves I I I I'm supported in my
thoughts uh they support me in my thoughts and and we can be a collective of one yeah it although it doesn't seem
like you're doing that it sounds like you're you know it would be the equivalent of saying my favorite thing
is Donuts I'm just going to eat donuts all the time but you're you're saying hey I don't agree with the Atlantic but
they they they stretch my mind I'm going to listen right yes I think that's really healthy and I'm glad you're
you're raising the caution the caution being I'm going to follow whoever agrees
with me whoever thinks like me whoever doesn't challenge or stretch me and
Facebook feeds are the same way you know I'm gonna I'm going to snip off friends that disagree with my politics or my
faith and that's really sad and and and there is evidence I think coming out of
uh University of Colorado that doing so unsurprisingly makes you more polarized
right or we could even use the word radicalized frankly sure like take take
your your pet soap box or mine or whoever's I'm only going to listen to
this kind of person pretty soon you know just you just follow this you so I'm
glad you raised that caution and I would also add I had a professor at BYU Rich Williams he taught us that who we trust
the decision of who we trust to listen to Will shape all of our future and so
like on a higher meta Phil philosophical level this is a weighty question and
it's interesting that we we come down on on different we we reach different
conclusions about this you and your neighbor you and your wife she probably listens trust some people that you may
and there's probably a pretty good overlap between Greg and his wife but if you trusted different people 10 years
ago to give you the truth you probably be a different person today don't you
think sure absolutely I think that's a very big Point yeah it's well I mean that's what faith is I mean you break it
down into a religious context it's it to
me trust is Faith it's the exact same thing and and and so so if I'm going to have faith in something or someone or
whether it's whether it's God or a person um that's what I'm going to lean
toward right that's what I'm going to go toward and so you better be careful what you're leaning toward well even just the
beginning of our day do we actually trust enough to to push back on all this
stuff and just say I'm G to kneel before someone that I regard as having more
intelligence than me and then I'm going to open this book that doesn't have any
pictures and that speaks from thousands of years ago and I'm going to spend time
trying to hear wisdom outside of myself right I'm I'm increasingly convinced
Greg that that alone is a radical act just acknowledging that there is a
higher power who has something to teach you and and a way to guide you
um it's becoming a lot more common as you know and you've been vocal about this what's your truth Greg you don't
need to listen anybody else you have everything you need yeah and and I don't know it starts
to break down community in really fundamental ways when all we need is our own
truth and forget about scripture or prayer or even
books or or or our parents or something like that so yeah I'm I'm a community
psychologist so I think there's strength in those Community connections
accountability right if we get off track somebody can kind of help us almost
every time you have a tragedy like this shooting in New York almost every time the person has been isolated they have
they've been stewing in their juices and in a way that radicalizes them to the
point of doing something terrible so there's there's value in those Community
connections So when you say community though I mean what that matters too right I mean what is the community that you're creating around you I mean
whether it's news and and and and people on social media that I'm putting around me I again I mean I I can be creating
something very tribal which is the more default natural thing to do and it's not
just politics right it's it's oh I'm LDS I'm going to have other Latter-Day Saints that are around me all the time
I'm going to have people that are my age maybe it's more men maybe it's you know regardless I'm creating a community and
that's not all bad is it I mean am I not at all in fact I'm really glad you
mentioned that because this is another misconception that social media has introduced we have hundreds and
thousands of friends friends but there is an anthropologist named Dunbar I'm
I'm his first name is escaped me he studied human communities Greg and he
came up with what he called dunbar's number he said human beings can only have so many stable intact relationships
we can't have thousands and he actually broke it down he broke it down uh if you look it up
there's like most of us have five really close friends for most of us the best
friend category you can't have like 50 super close friends you got five and
then you got f 10 other people around that that are maybe one step remove from best friend but are really close and you
kind of move out MH and it it actually reinforces the point you just made
because if we only have so much time and capacity at least in our mortal finite
state right we better Choose Wisely like who are you going to pour your your love
and your attention into who are you going to live life with
and uh and if someone is pouring negativity and and doubt and and and
certainly hostility kind of making different choices I I agree it's not a
clean distinction between just what media are we taking in and what people uh for people with depression this is
one thing we've recommended and also people struggling with pornography addiction very thoughtfully curate the
people around you your community so that they're going to help you find either freedom from addiction
or the happiness you're seeking right the peace doesn't that go along with how
you're choosing your news too it's the same thing I think it's it's I've probably got five sources I really trust
and I really like and I go beyond that then it starts to water down just a little bit it's like yeah maybe maybe
not usually there's some some some that I have a lot more trust in and that I'm
uh and and that are thoughtful and that's the other thing I notice about news is you know something like the
Atlantic or something like you know an editorial piece or something that has been where there's been time taken to
write it and to think through it that is that
is that is better news to me right I want to think through
the process I want to understand the issues I want to be absorbed in it a little bit and and and and see the
context of these things once they it's St a little bit and and and and to just
have a straight reaction I just did an episode on uh there was a a viral picture of Muslims that are bowing down
in prayer in a Relief Society room in a chapel right in in in a la latterday St
chapel and there the response on this is all over the place right on on the Spectrum all the way from this is
wonderful and love and Christlike to what in the world are we doing this makes no sense and you know it's all
over the place but to me it's it's I I I think there's a very you could you could
have a very easy knee-jerk reaction to this without stopping and really stewing
on it and trying to think through it and maybe it won't change anything for you but a lot of news is get it out now uh
be first uh get all the likes and and the retweets and everything else on
there first and and so it's very you know it's oftentimes very
reactive I agree with you I we would all benefit from not just spouting whatever
comes to mind you know like I have something to say um there's one other angle I wanted
to bring up before we were out of time um and maybe it's if I can frame it as
another thing that people of Faith have to offer in this in this
conversation it so much of the news that comes out there has sort of um a tinge
of culture War you know like we're at War and in addition to being optimistic
about being truth and goodness being in different places it seems to me uh
followers of Christ especially um in in this conversation about what is
true we can also be a voice that says we don't have to be at War over this
whether it's different positions about how to heal the body different perspectives on what America needs and
yes there are people that care about America on both sides of the spectrum and and we can say like like
what if we assume for a moment that both sides are well intention both sides are
really caring about the goodness of humanity then we can learn from
different perspectives um we've had an experience recently of getting help for
our daughter at Primary Children's and you know we have the same questions and
wonderings like many people he Clos the door we have the same questions as sorry
about that as many people about putting our daughter on
these pretty heavy duty medications for her seizures but the people that we' worked with at primary have been so
wonderful and so kind and helpful and the medications that made a difference and even with seizures there's like
there's kind of warfare going on attacks and like this and that and I've just
I've become newly convinced that God doesn't want us to go to war over these
things like we we lose out if we start to believe that that other side hates us
that other side on whatever issue is disgusting that other side just wants the destruction of America or that other
side actually wants to keep us sick where the other side only cares about money you know we see that even in disc
discussions about the church right it's like these silly conversations that happen where oh the they only care about
money or power or control and it's actually just um a cartoonish sort of
thing most people that I run into even my two Marxist friends that I that are
dear friends to me I don't agree with them but they have so much goodness and
and um you get what I'm saying does that make any sense no I get it I mean it's
it's it's uh well a couple things there I think first of all there's a there's a level of Charity there that is an important
principle that needs to be put out there and maybe charity works with knowledge maybe charity works with uh gaining
knowledge in that sense if we're framing it this way it's like well wait a minute
here I need to look how how do I you know there's opposition in all things
but that doesn't mean I'm a I I'm looking at what I'm opposed to and and
fighting it necessarily maybe but but maybe what I'm doing is I'm looking at all the
opposition and I'm taking it all in and I'm Discerning yeah right I can grab all
of this I mean you were talking about health well you've got a lot of issues you've got what is it uh maaha make
America healthy again you got this whole new movement on on on uh RFK J am I
saying that right and and it's like okay well maybe there's some truth there maybe there's some truth over here and
maybe I can pull these things in and now I've got context maybe now I can look at this in
a in a way where I can maybe there's some Synergy in all of this I love that you brought the charity Engle in because
um that does seem to be the opposite of how we've sometimes been socialized to
view things I I run into people a lot including fellow believers who kind of
approach everything they hear with deep suspicion like like no no no no there's
there's um there's a secret agenda here you and I you know the Book of Mormon
talks about secret combinations latterday Saints ought to be very clear that this isn't make believe there
really is such a thing but there's a difference there's a difference for me between being aware of that and looking
at everything with sort of a lens of there's something deeper going on and if
if we if you would indulge I actually think
that mentality is more exciting than reality what I'm saying is
if I'm on the inside secret if I'm a part of the group that knows the truth
right that nobody else really knows everybody else is deceived but I know the inside it's kind of exciting it's
like you're part of an inside Club but sometimes the truth sometimes the truth is not so
malevolent sometimes I think um the full truth means really good people just
disagree and they actually don't want the downfall of the Republic or of Christianity right I
think some PE sometimes it's it's it's a lot more simple but we're not excited by
that and if if I could say one more thing I do have a worry and I'd like to write about this next year that if we
get too much into the drama of of sort of the villain stories
and the uh you know the Illuminati are out to get us all the plain precious
truths of the gospel and of faith and of following Christ get boring you open
that and you're like repentance yielding my heart serving my neighbor boring I
mean the Republic is trembling we've got to like rally against the elites you
know what I mean I've got I've got a good friend I'm not gonna say his name who every time I see him he's telling me
about another podcast that's tell telling him something and I I swear like
I could either listen to those podcasts or spend time with the word of God I don't have time for both yeah and I
think you get what I'm saying like we can get so fired up about that that that then you open scripture and you might
just not be able to get it and to hear the voice of God anymore which by the
way is more exciting than the voice of any influencer out there the Living God
speaking to Greg and Jacob and telling us what we need to know that is more
exciting than Tucker Carlson or Russell Brand or
anyone more than Russell BR I don't know he's pretty interesting no yeah I
think I the other thing is I think on that just just to end here it's I I do think there is a knowledge I
mean that whole book of Mormon is a warning right of how a civilization falls apart we need to keep that in mind
um but at least I think in our day and age I I think you need to separate what
we might look at as Bad actors right and maybe there's a much
smaller group of those than we might think and and secondarily what we might look at as
entropy right in in a system or in a an industry or uh you know it's like well
yeah there probably needs to be some corrections here there needs to be some things that we need to look at and make some changes right um that's how I what
I try to do it's like okay there's there's problems here there there could be a bad actor it's possible but but
what has brought us to this point why why is this you know why why is what why
is insulin so expensive you know why whatever it is no no you're right and neither of us are advocating for this
naivity that's just like sure come on in you're selling um this this deal that's
too good to be true or you're going to dup me there's a reason that that we sometimes get duped too much as people
of Faith right and my my bet is we'll be better at that discernment at be able to
recognize the Bad actors if we have a free flow of conversation between people
who disagree but don't demonize each other for it right okay like it just seems to
me we're more vulnerable to being deceived and led down a path if it
becomes siloed then people can take advantage but if we're hearing from different
sources you know if your if your exfeed was just here are all the people that think like
Greg I think you'd be more easily kind of LED down a path the fact that you've cured created a ideologically diverse
news feed and of course that includes the desire news I know you're faithful absolutely that you you get what I'm
saying there's more opportunity for corrective if we're we allow ourselves to be challenged I have an Episcopalian
friend he says he goes to church to be uncomfortable because if he stayed home
and just stayed in his own thoughts about the Bible about God he'd just be
very comfy cozy but he goes to church and encounters people that don't have his same politics or views and it
stretches him and I may not appreciate how you try to like listen to lots of
people Greg and including some of my wild ideas and and I I think you're
advocating that a as important and it needs to be happening on campus it needs
to be happening in newsrooms John height when I interviewed John height two years ago he said our truth seeking
Institution have failed us that's where this distrust Has Come From My Hope Is
that the beauty at the heart of Journalism and at the heart of universities cannot just be recovered
but we can like restore it you know like like there's something beautiful there that we can't let go of we can't just
say ah universities are a waste journalism is a waste the court system is a waste these
institutions have been there for a reason and and um I feel like you're you've been a voice for reform right
like let's let's do this right let's do it in a way that people can trust again
yeah appreciate that all right Jacob Hess from the Deseret News staff riter check out his stuff there at
deseretnews.com uh one more time hold up that game you have that I'll include the
link I'll include the the train your puppy train your puppy good Christmas
gift and and just gift period so all right Jacob appreciate your your time so much thank you Greg