Michelle Stone is a leading voice in a movement stating that Joseph Smith did not initiate or practice polygamy. We address President Nelson and President Oaks' multiple sealings, the succession of Brigham Young from Joseph Smith, historical documents, and, of course, the scriptures.
I do not agree with Michelle's conclusions, but as a Latter-day Saint cultural dynamic, the person and the topic interest me.
voice in a movement that uh has been gaining a lot of popularity stating that Joseph Smith
Never initiated polygamy she's been called a hero by some and apostate by others and she's certainly passionate
about her conclusions now this host here I don't agree with most of her
conclusions and I let her talk and express herself and clarify her beliefs
and her study and there's a couple of you know semi- tense moments I think you'll find it compelling and I hope you
listen to it all the way through as the official spokesman for going to travel it is my job to let you know that this
episode is brought to you by go and do travel the gospel on the Nile tour is really something I just got back from
this trip in Egypt follow up in Turkey the temples and structures there in Egypt are absolutely incredible but
really what is amazing is the gospel instruction that you get you will learn more about the temple there in Egypt
than you will anywhere else outside of the temple itself go to quick media.com that's cwic media.com go up to trips and
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sold out limited capacity left in the March 4th to 14th and March 18th to 28th
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go right welcome to Quick show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we bring on Michelle Stone
who is the founder of her own YouTube channel called 132 problems is that
right uhhuh yeah okay welcome to the show show thanks thanks for having me on I've been looking forward to talking to
you yeah I appreciate you doing this so let me start with this I've got a few things that I want to cover here but but
really just want to start with what what is your Channel about and why did you start it okay so I I I give this
synopsis in the first couple of episodes on mine but I'll do it as quickly as I can I was raised fully believing in
polygamy my grandmother is the oldest daughter of post post Manifesto polygamist called by Joseph F Smith to
go to Mexico and take a second wife and um and I was just raised on all of the Beautiful Stories it it I just kind of
trusted there are things we don't understand and it's going to be beautiful and I thought that it was the law of Zion and the law of the Celestial
Kingdom and um so in oh I can't remember exactly the year but my husband said
something that said that he he came in and said that he didn't believe that polygamy was of God he was reading the book of Mormon and I was shocked and
went to the scriptures to prove him wrong because I had never studied out polygamy I had just always accepted it
and as I studied I became Amazed by how little I had actually understood and how
naive I was and as I started delving more into the histories and just learning more and more about it so that
kind of caused a bit of a um you know it shook me up quite a bit and I needed to talk to to people about it so I started
a Facebook group because this conversation was not welcome anywhere so I had to start my own Facebook group and
since I had been very conservative I taught a lot in homeschooling and I used to talk about when I teach about
Celestial education I thought that since one of the laws of the Celestial Kingdom is polygamy that would kind of come up
in my in my um presentations to some extent and so people um started kind of
um I think wanting to reclaim me so any anyway this Facebook group really grew
and I ended up being able to engage with the best um Scholars of polygamy who shared all of the scriptures that they
used it Ed to defend it and that was so helpful to me because being able to come up with the very best defenses and the
best arguments in favor of polygamy and being able to investigate them confirmed me even that much more that polygamy was
never of God that it was it is never a commandment of God never has been never will be it is contrary to God's
Commandments and that's something we need to know and so anyway fast forward um in 20 early 2022 I just felt strongly
inspired that now is the time and I needed to start talking about it I had quite a few experiences that um proded
me along and let me know that this is what I felt I needed to do to just help our people understand the truth of God
the Eternal truth of marriage as God established it and all of the different Corruptions that can come into that that
I think make us um vulnerable to the curses that are prophesied and and make
us less likely to have God's protection and also I I've seen so many people fall
away from this from the church based on the doctrine of marriage right based B on polygamy in our in our past and then
the struggles we have with navigating marriage today with all of the um LGBT
movements that that that is happening in the struggles that we have to to manage that well and so I feel like coming to a
better understanding of these issues is a way to actually preserve faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and hopefully
preserve activity in the church um if people feel inspired that that's that
that is something that they can do that's that's kind of been my goal and My Hope okay so obviously and you know
I'm sure you've gone through this well I know you've gone through these many times looking through through your your channels but my audience may not be
familiar with you um so then today we've got you know contrary to what you're
saying the practice of the church continued on with polygamy up all
obviously into till the manifesto a little bit beyond that you had some a little beyond the second man the first
Manifesto 1890 then again in 2004 and in 2006 is when my great great my great
great-grandfather was called you mean 1904 1904 did I say the wrong Year yes 1904 is when my great-grandfather was
called by Joseph F Smith to take a second yeah so there car carried on a little bit actually was even a little bit even further up maybe even into the
20s but what what uh today we've got a
prophet that has been sealed to two wives we've got the first counselor in
the first presidency that's been sealed to two wives so they're you know even though there's not a practice of
Lifetime temporal polygamy there is a there are multiple wives that are sealed
to these men give me an idea of where you think this why are we doing this
right and and and if it's not the law why would these men be doing it and if
it was never commanded to Joseph Smith obviously just bring me back to that DNA
all the way back to Joseph Smith and and Brigham Young oh okay that's that's a huge question can you clarify a little
bit more what you're asking okay let's start with why why let's just start with President Nelson then why is President Nelson
practicing let's call it at least a multiple ceilings with women well I I do
think that we have a lot of confusion you know I I think that there are lots of things that are handed down to us as
the traditions of our fathers that um that cause us to I don't think that all
people at all times see everything purely Through The Eyes Of God even people commanded to preside over the
church right we all have our things that we're learning we we see throughout the scriptures where Joseph Smith was called
to repentance where other prophets of God have been taught and instructed and even Jesus learned line upon line
precept upon precept I don't set myself up to I don't I don't actually like to speak directly to what our church
leaders are doing because that's not my place I'm just trying to talk to people I do think that there is a deceptive
spirit ofl that enters in we see it happen again and again with people in
the church that dig up these old teachings of Brigham Young and other early leaders and things like the LA
Barons and the lafes more recently the day Bells you know you know it just keeps happening and so there is this um
compelling spirit that teaches teaches men and women that God's laws are
different than what they expected and it's really it really those deceptive Spirits can be very compelling I'm not saying that's the case with President
Nelson at all I think that we have the fact is Eternal Marriage which which was
taught by Joseph Smith we have Joseph Smith on the record teaching um Eternal Marriage publicly July 16th 1843 we can
go into that a little bit and then confirming both he and ham confirming what that Revelation actually was which
was only about Eternal Marriage and that is a beautiful doctrine that also creates some complication because when a
spouse dies then what happens right and we have in the original section 101 in
the original doctrine of Covenant 1835 that Joseph Smith published and then it was it was section um 109 in the 1844
version both of those are actually the statement on marriage which is very very strictly monogamist and says in as much
as this church has been um um I accused of the crime of fornication and polygamy
we declare that one man should have but one wife and one woman but one husband except in time of death when either is
at Liberty to marry again and so so I do believe that Eternal Marriage is with
one husband and one wife we have a problem now where um a widow widows have
a terrible time in the church particularly young widows because they're sealed to their first husband their husband dies and very often today
still men have a really hard time dating and marrying a widow unless she will
break her ceiling to her first husband right we've made some mediation of that that after she dies um she can be sealed
to both husbands and we just trust God to work it out and so I kind of think that God doesn't want us to teach a
doctrine that falls harshly on the backs of widows do you know what I mean widows bear the Brent of this teaching because
for a widower he can easily be sealed to two women but a woman since she can't be sealed to two men it really does wreak
havoc in the lives of many people in the church so I I tend to say just like we tell women trust God to work it out I
think we can tell that to both men and women trust God to work it out so do you think then that the you're you know the
the practice just that one man can be sealed to multiple women and one but a woman can only be sealed to one man is
that is that false then at that point well I it is a relic of polygamy it's a
relic of I think our false tradition of polygamy so if you know if I were Empress for a day which is not my place
but I do think that I don't see the harm inow and allowing men to be sealed to
multiple spouses after a spouse to to be sealed to another wife after a wife dies and trusting God to work it out and I
would say the same for women I think it would ease a lot of heartbreak and heartache if women were also allowed to
be sealed toward men I don't I don't think that that difference between the um Sexes makes very much sense if we
understand Eternal Marriage as both Joseph and hyram Smith repeatedly taught it okay so let's go back then to Joseph
Smith and for you Joseph Smith as you're saying that polygamy is a FAL tradition
for you Joseph Smith never taught this is that correct yes yeah and and when I started my podcast I was certain that
Joseph Smith was the originator of polygamy because that's what we're always told and I hadn't delved into the
history and even as far as a year into my podcast I still thought I I knew he W
I knew that Joseph Smith wasn't doing the same thing that Brigham Young and the Utah polygamists were doing I knew it was different and that's pretty clear
when you get into what are the diff let's go into that what are the differences then well well I can I can
say that but but I but what I will say is now I see it that Joseph Smith Not only was not only involved in it at all
but he fought against it with every in every possible way he could so I so I
don't know if it's as useful to answer what I used to see as the differences as to say now I think that Joseph Smith was
completely opposed to polygamy and um and that it was started by other um
other leaders who really became convinced that this is what God wanted so
so so let's back up a little bit on that also then what about all of the letters that we have later on talking about
Joseph Smith telling them about the law of celestial marriage and multiple wives
yes there are several of them are you talking about the affidavits or are you talking I'm talking about I'm talk I'm
talking about for example uh William law right uh is it Sarah Kimble and uh
and others that have written letters talking about how Joseph Smith I mean William law was not a friend of the
church right he was in the first presidency he's excommunicated he leaves he has a uh a statement where he says
that in fact there were rumors that Joseph Smith was approaching his wife Jane and about this and but he comes out
and says that Joseph was pushing polygamy
right and he certainly is not a friend he never accuses Brigham Young of being the guy that does this he accus uses
Joseph Smith so it's really interesting I've actually done for anyone that's interested in a more um full discussion
that we're able to have here I have done episodes on each of these topics what I think you're talking about with William law is the navu Expositor which was
published during Joseph Smith's lifetime so let me just clarify we have different categories of evidence right that that
say that Joseph was a polygamist and it's important to recognize that it was really important to the Mormon
polygamists to say that it came from Joseph Smith they really need needed um
his validation on it so so they were you can see where they went through and changed a lot of the history the history
that was created under Brigham Young as the president and with his um his his
his what is the word I'm looking for committee the the historians you can now that we have the Joseph Smith papers we
can go back and see changes that they made to journal entries to um other letters and documents that are really
important for us to understand so so we actually don't have we we have the navoo
Expositor during Joseph Smith's lifetime which is a whole big conversation to have it actually is not good evidence
that uh oh did I lose your gr you're good you're good okay it's not good evidence that Joseph Smith was a polygamist because we also have John
Bennett during Joseph Smith's lifetime who was the first counselor in the first presidency before William law and he
left the church he was a womanizer he was attempting to do spiritual wifey which is what the polygamists actually
called it in the early days as well and he um was had to leave Nauvoo in May of
1842 I believe he immediately started publishing letters he published six letters in the local newspaper the Sango
journal and and they were carried um broadly throughout the United States He also wrote a book that was published
that same year that was accusing Joseph Smith of all kinds of things and he is actually considered one of the best sources of Joseph Smith's polygamy
because he names several supposed wives just by um initials like he has Miss lb
and miss you know and and so we take those and and use him so kind of as
members of the church it's important to understand that we we really consider that will I mean that um John Bennett
lied about just about everything except Joseph Smith's polygamy and there he was telling the truth even though Joseph
Smith was saying I did not do any of those things and the same is true of William law he just kind of used some of
the same allegations that John Bennett had already made and included those in some as as some of the things that he
included in the navu Expositor it's actually a tiny little part of it there are other reasons that William law was
motivated to try to replace Joseph Smith he actually started his own church and he was the president of the new church
he wanted to be the mayor of the city he wanted to he wanted to really depose Joseph Smith and take the True Church of
Jesus Christ of letter exactly yes and so so we have that evidence right there that's really important to look at
thoroughly and critically with and compare it to all of the other sources I think it's also important to look at
what Joseph and hyam themselves said about those allegations which we have all of that um available to us on the
Joseph Smith papers right then we go forward into the Utah period and we start getting Affidavit of people saying
that Joseph Smith taught them about plural marriage or we have some from some of the wives saying that and and
those start in 1869 in Utah Joseph F Smith actually started to compile those
and it's amazing to me how um little understood they are I'm actually doing a lot of work on those digging into them
right now they are Rife with problems they are so hugely problematic they that
that we need to look at each of them individually and see what the problems are with them like for example Emily
Partridge gives two dates that she married that she was married to Joseph Smith right and then later on in the
temple loot case she says well it's because we did a pretend marriage and then we did it later on but if you look at the dates the judge that she says
married them was not in town and um I think was it Joseph was not in town or Emma was Emma was not in town I can't
remember oh I I see I all of the details get fuzzy if I haven't looked at it immediately the judge might have been
the judge that she says married that might have passed away but I know em Emma wasn't in town anyway that's one example we can go through these
affidavits so many of them were not even signed by the women they are not the women's own voices they are form letter
affidavits that were filled out the vast majority of them the women may or may not have signed them and then so we
really need to validate them and verify them with other evidence because they are so so problematic and the Utah
church was so motivated to claim that Joseph Smith had been a polygamist so keep in mind this evidence came 25 years
after Joseph Smith's death and completely contradicted everything that Joseph and hyam and Emma said during
their lives and actually the reason that those affidavits were be begun was because Joseph and Emma's Sons came to
Utah on missions in 1866 to try to preach to the people that Joseph had never been a polygamist and that this um
Doctrine they were believing wasn't true and so that's what motivated the Utah Mormons to try to start Gathering
affidavit so I'm going to follow a natural Trail here in response to that right so if you're saying that like
Joseph F Smith as an example who later becomes Prophet are you saying that the prophets as the you're calling them Utah
Mormons compiled these things to try and prove something that Joseph Smith was talking about but they were lying about
it they wanted to they wanted to uh substantiate their practice of
polygamy well I I don't like using the word lying if I can avoid it but yes they they're for them if you look at the
teachings of the time if you read through the Journal of discourses the highest good the the moral value that
they had to fulfill was to obey counsel right and was to defend the kingdom of
God as they saw it so I think that what what they felt like was what we need to
say in order to protect this this Society we have and and these were a traumatized people they had been chased
out of multiple places right and and they were fighting for that what they saw as their right to live what they saw
as their Doctrine and so whatever they needed to say and do in order to um say
that that you know in order to protect their Kingdom I think is what they said and did but I I think that telling the
literal truth was a much lower priority for many of them because here here's the issue I would have right because just
looking through through the the uh the the succession of prophets then then Brigham Young we'll get to him in a
minute but Brigham Young and John Taylor and Wilford
Woodruff uh Joseph F Smith oreno snow these would have all been men then that
are supporting the practice trying to because a lot of them
were with Joseph Smith right so so they would know him they would know if there were Revelations or
not about this so they would have to they would have to uh take this and it's
not a it's not just I think as you're saying it's not just a matter of well there's Traditions here and practices
that we need to support and support there are traditions and practices they were our traditions and practices but it's they would actually have to
boldface lie about Joseph Smith because they were with him they would have
known so so so are you asking about like how that doesn't destroy the um ability
no I don't I'm not talking about that I'm talking about the men's practice and statements if they're comp in these
affidavits and and everything else you're saying that because they these are men
that knew Joseph Smith you know it's it's most of them right there it's like they they would be
completely agreeing to the practice of polygamy as a Brigham Young invention or
or they a collective invention of them right and in and saying that Joseph
Smith Never practiced and then coming back and supporting section 132 later on
and supporting the practice a as and and stating and
supporting that this was from Joseph Smith yeah so the way that I understand
that the way that it makes sense to me I do think that there was there is this
deceptive spirit that teaches people ideas that are contrary to the
establishment of God right and so we have actually we can trace out some of the places that this would have come
from for example the Cochran nightes were another restoration branch that was before the um before Joseph Smith and
they did practice this community of wives in spiritual wery right and we have some some of our Apostles that
served among them and in fact like Brigham Young was among the cochron knites one of his earliest wives was
Augustus Cobb who was a cochron knite and left her husband and seven children to to go with Brigham Young right and
and gave birth to a son named Brigham so we have that then we also have this time in England when the um apostles were on
a mission in England in 1840 I want to say um we have records from that time
period letters written um William Clayton was not an apostle but he was a member who joined the church in England
and became the mission president under Brigham Young and Heber SE Kimble and we have letters from him and his journals
during that time that we do have access to that are extremely um insightful to
show things that he was doing with other women and being he never writes about his wife or even really mentions her but
he writes about other women that he has a lot of feelings for that he's spending a lot of time with all hours of the
night right then we also have heby Kimble his letters to his wife and we have um Brigham Young we have a lot of I
I can't I don't have time to go into all of the details right now but the evidence from that time period is essential to understand and then we have
Brigham Young on the record several times either preaching a sermon or talking to people individually like
Skyler kfax who became the vice president of the United States Brigham told him this as well where he would say
that he knew about this Doctrine in England before Joseph Smith ever mentioned a thing about it to him he was
in kind like he really wanted to um take the credit for the doctrine that really was his you know but he also needed to
say it came from Joseph Smith in order to give it the um justification and the validation that it needed and so so I
know we quote Brigham Young saying I um I envied the courts like I I wanted the grave when I found out about this
Doctrine but it's important to not just take one thing he said at one time speaking to one audience for one purpose
but to look at the um you know all of the things that he said over time to try
to get a sense of of what the story really is so I do think we can see in Nauvoo during Joseph Smith's lifetime
Joseph and hyram and Emma they were preaching against this continually in fact one of the central reasons that the
release society was established it was both to try to provide clothing for the temp for the men building the Temple but
it was also to try to protect women from the awful things that men like um John
Bennett and other polygamists were preaching around going around because everyone was going around saying Joseph's had a revelation this is from
Joseph Smith and Joseph and ham were constantly saying this is not from us this is not from God don't believe it
right so they were doing everything they could to fight it and it's really interesting to look at Nauvoo before
Joseph's death there were just a few marriages here and there only a couple of babies born after Joseph and Ham's
death polygamy explodes in navoo so the excuse we make for why there's no
evidence of Joseph's polygamy in Nauvoo is that it was illegal and it had to be kept secret but then why wouldn't that
apply after Joseph's death because the Saints actually had more troubles after Joseph died they they had to leave in
just a few years so what makes much more sense to me as I look at the documentation is that they were hiding
it from Joseph and hyram Smith that's who they had who is hiding it the other the polygamists who were engaging in
this at this time it was tayor um I can't I don't I would need to look up
how early John Taylor got involved with it but um we have we do have a handful of Nauvoo polygamist during Joseph
Smith's Lifetime and then after he he dies is when it explodes and so we need to keep in mind also most people who
believed that Joseph Smith was a polygamist believed it because that's what they were told by others right so
it because there are Outsiders that are fearful this is part of the maybe even the inducement of the mobs to some
degree right is this this rumor about Joseph Smith practicing polygamy yeah I as I've
looked into it I think there are actually way bigger issues for the mobs I think that polygamy was a I'm just
saying it's part of it I'm not saying yeah and I don't I think we like to magnify how important it was but when I
look at the discourse that's being had in the newspapers and it's polygamy is kind of one more thing they can add to
say awful in this way too but it really was much more about the political situation as and the economic situation
that's much more those were far more the motivating factors okay so I want to get back to Joseph Smith and bring him in
here in a minute but there's one more uh reference that I want uh hopefully for you to address here this is William law
again but this is in an 1887 interview yes with the Salt Lake Tribune and and I'm going to quote this he says uh what
do you remember about Emma's this is the interview what do you remember about Emma's relations to the Revelation on
Celestial marriage is the question well this is law well I told
you that she used to complain to me about Joseph's escapades whenever she met me on the street she spoke
repeatedly about the pretended Revelation again this is the
excommunicated uh uh William law is this the Dr W interview is this one of the interviews with Dr W that uh I don't
this is a Salt Lake Tribune on March 30th 1887 with William I don't know who conducted it okay but she said once he
says the Revelation says I must submit or be destroyed so this would go along with a parallel of of section 132 right
well I guess I have to submit she says on another day she said Joe and I have
settled our troubles on the basis of equal rights so he here William law no
friend of the church and no friend of Joseph Smith at all is saying that is a
pretended Revelation very clearly implicating multiple wives what what is
he talking about here so okay so this is an interesting source and I would really recommend digging deeper into the
history of these um the full interviews and what happened so that's what we tend to see this a lot people get one little
snippet from here one little snippet from there and try to put them together but without an understanding of the full picture so will H hel W it is from his
interview he published a book about the Mormons for you know a very anti-mormon
book and he mentions William law in it it talks quite a bit about Joseph Smith and he mentions William law William law
was so opposed to some of the things that he wrote that he writes Dr W and and and says you got this wrong and
mainly what it is is that Joseph was um hitting on Jane law and and um and he
was like that absolutely did not ever happen that will Jane was um William Law's wife right and so he writes this
letter and he does say you know much more about Mormonism than I do so um
William law learned about Mormonism by reading this book right and William law had become very disenfranchised with the
church at this point so much of what he's passing on was well well let's see Joseph Smith died in 1844 William law
left the church in 1843 I think by the end of 1843 when he was no longer a member and this interview was
1887 right how clearly do you remember exact quotes from 40 years earlier right
404 43 40 4 years earlier that's a pretty tall order but he does seem to
corroborate that there was at least some kind of pretended Revelation on what I recommend doing because what
the thing that actually convinced me that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist that there were many different factors
but the thing that really just made me know it among other things but mainly it
was studying Emma it was studying Emma Smith this incredible woman this great
woman who sacrificed so much who was chosen by God to be the matriarch of the restoration right who was Joseph Smith's
chosen wife and the things that are said about her in this polygamy narrative do not match what everybody who ever said
her know said about who whoever knew her said about her her own words that we do have quite a few of she was extremely
intelligent very patient very giving very loving and and just an incredible
woman who we constantly defame and so when I read William law saying this about Emma Smith we have a lot of we
have also William mlen who claims that Emma Smith told him all of these things about her personal relationship with
Joseph Smith Emma was extremely private from everything we can see she did not share share things the idea that she
would go to William law and just talk openly about oh my husband's cheating on me is insane if you truly if you know
Emma if you have studied Emma but understanding William law saying that isn't that hard to explain at this point
this many years later when his when he's been tainted with that he used to be involved in in Mormonism so he's trying
to separate himself from it right and we can read through many other things that are said in these interviews and in his
letter and it becomes clear that he's I mean I I would think that this is a much lower quality of evidence than the
contemporaneous writings of Joseph Smith Emma Smith hyram Smith Lucy Max Smith who had only good to say about Emma and
all of the other women who knew Emma this is not it would be very difficult
to show to substance app in any way that Emma Smith um talked to people like this
about her personal affairs we have a lot of evidence to the contrary like for example we we many people know the story
when um Joseph and let me get the name Elizabeth um was it new K Whitney maybe
anyway Joseph and new K Whitney I believe if I'm getting the name right went on a mission early when they were um and Emma was going to go stay with
Elizabeth Whitney right and she knocked on the door she had just I think lost another child she had Julia and I think
was expecting Joseph and went and knocked on the door and the Aunt Aunt Sarah told her you can't stay here and
Elizabeth was sick and she had nowhere to stay that that experience was so
humiliating for her she did not speak about it until she finally talked about it decades later and then even at that
point she could barely talk about it without being completely mortified right and that is a much less um that's just
one example of how private she was and how proud in the best way she was that
she would not be having these kinds of convers I I would be very hard pressed to find any evidence to say that this
this would be a true account of Emma okay but we do have a lot of other accounts of Emma we have Brigham Young
saying that Emma tried to to murder Joseph Smith that she tried to poison him at least twice that she wanted him
to be killed at Carthage you know like lots of things are said about Emma we need to compare them no love loss
between Bri and Emma for sure and and William law and Emma yeah okay and I
agree with you as far as the character of Emma absolutely and I and what I've heard especially and honestly it comes mostly from women I'll say that that
that they kind of disparage Emma it's like I I don't get it I don't understand why you're disparaging Emma because the
the things that she had to go through are unreal right I mean she's right there with Joseph Smith as far as the
persecution and the difficulty with her family and the loss of the kids and everything else it's it's uh there's no
question she's got a very very high character and went through an immense amount and it's very difficult to go back as Monday morning historians and
say this you know XYZ about Emma she didn't go to Utah with Brigham or
whatever else right now A couple more of these because I want you to address these um okay now here's H can I say
just one more quick about about William Law's interview with Dr wild this is an interesting one because the testimony
throughout these affidavits is that this um Revelation that they claimed that Hyrum was passing around navoo and that
they claimed that he read in front of the High Council is exactly what's recorded in section 132 I think there
are many reasons to take issue with that but it is interesting that Dr I mean that William law who was the one who
wrote the Expositor and claimed that the um Revelation was passed to him he says it was only three pages whereas doctrine
of covenants 132 the the versions We have of it even in our own scriptures are between eight and 10 pages and he
said it didn't have any of that beginning stuff it just it was a different Revelation than what we have in section 132 so I think that's another
important thing to pay attention to as we are looking at these interviews so anyway go ahead okay so here's another
one this is from 184 44 uh this is an avid davit from May 4th 1844 so this is
7 weeks before uh Joseph is martyred here and and this is from Austin cows yeah this
is Expositor on June 7th 1844 um and it says the following hyram
Smith did essay to read the said Revelation in sad High Council that
according to his reading there was contained the following doctrines that d and Solomon had many wives yet in this
they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah
Uriah yep and so again the question is who do we believe right because we're getting two different stories sometimes
more than two different stories but two different versions of the truth so Austin kows um so this was published in
the navoo Expositor with the three affidavits William law Jane law and Austin kows saying that hyram Smith
brought this Revelation to them or read this Revelation right so this is what's important to to important to recognize
this is this is what I this is what I believe happened I'm trying to decide the best way to approach this but if you
read section 132 it's it it becomes quite clear that it's an amalgamation of
of different things because it does talk about Eternal Marriage but the verses that talk about Eternal Marriage are
exclusively and unavoidably monogamist they're completely if a man marry a wife and they two go through this process
then this is how they have eternal life right and we have records of Joseph Smith teaching those doctrines so while
you're reading that with Austin Kel I think it's also useful to look at when and why it looks like Austin kows left
the High Council and The Grudge that he had because a decision didn't go his way not too long before this but I just want
to refer to Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith on June 8th and June 10th the city
council meeting that so the city council minutes were kept we now have access to those in the Joseph Smith papers and
then they published a version of them in the navu um in the oh can't remember what maybe the na neighbor but they
published them in the newspaper immediately after that to show they were trying to show the decision of why they
had the Expositor destroyed so the Expositor is where these things were published we tell ourselves now that
they published it because they wanted to keep polygamy secret that is not true at all first of all like I said John
Bennett had already published polygamy everywhere and if you read through the decision it was very carefully made and
they felt like it was the only thing they could do to try to keep the peace in navu and keep the mob from coming
that's that was the reason for doing it it had almost nothing to do about polygamy but let me just read a couple of little quotes this is Hyrum Smith at
the city council meeting on June 8th so just after the Expositor was published and it says that hyam said hyam
referring to the Revelation read to the High Council so he said I did read a revelation to the High Council Austin K
is saying it's this but he said that it was an answer to a question concerning things which transpired in former days
and had no reference to the present time and I can get in a little more to explain what that is so hyram Smith said
no Austin cow's is not true and then on June 10th hyram said um let's see he
spoke to show the food of Austin cows in relation to the Revelation referen to
that it referred to former days not the present times as stated by CS so he repeats that same things and then ma the
mayor Joseph said he had never preached the Revelation in private as he had in public so he said yes I had a revelation
I preached it publicly I never taught it in private he had not taught it to the anointed in the Church in private which
many confirmed so he said this to the to the city council many confirmed that that's true that he had taught it
publicly and that he hadn't taught it secretly to the highest anointed on inquiry this is what he's explaining it
is on inquiry the passage in the resur in the in the resurrection they need okay sorry on inquiry about the passage
and the resurrection they neither marry or are um they either marry or are given in marriage sorry I'm trying to read it
from the original minutes it's a little confusing I received for answer men in this life must marry in view of Eternity
was the that was the amount of the Revelation otherwise they must remain as angels in heaven and he spoke at
considerable length in explanation of the principles so we have Joseph and hyam on record saying there was a
revelation on Eternal Marriage it had nothing to do with polygamy in current
current times the only thing it referred to his former times which is what he talks to about Luke um 22 that he
referenced Luke's Luke Chapter 20 and now we and we do have the minute I can go over of that sermon that he gave so
we have at least um we have several different records of it but I can read you um William Clayton and is it Levi
Richards or no Franklin D Richards who recorded it so we have the minutes of that sermon where he did indeed talk
about these Concepts and these principles so I guess if people want to say no Joseph and hyam were lying and
Austin KS was telling the truth he's not lying there I wouldn't be lying if there was polygamy he's just not stating it
he's saying that the falsehood Austin kows in relation to the Revelation he's saying he is saying ham and Joseph are
both saying that Austin kows is lying okay that's tricky right we have
to decide well there's a lot of trickiness to all of this I think you know because you kind of have to sit back and say
okay well is Joseph hiding this because he's afraid of the law and he's afraid of Shame and he's afraid of which is
really what is the accepted narrative it is and for that or or because because I
can pick and choose and easily come up with that narrative as I think most people have or I can pick and choose
like you because I still think you're picking and choosing what your what you're focused on to to put together The
Narrative of saying that he never did practice polygamy I think that there's
there's history is tricky history is really really tricky it is tricky but these are really serious allegations
we're making and so many the these are the the th these are the favorite accusations of the anti-mormons and the
people that want to hate on Joseph right is this polygamy narrative and so we can look and say Joseph had to lie he was
hiding it it was carefully worded denials these aren't carefully worded denials if you read through Joseph Smith you can't say they're carefully worded
denials you would have to say he's lying repeatedly but we know from Joseph's own words and descriptions about himself and
his history he said I had had a revelation from God I could not deny it neither dared I do it for I knew that
God you know I knew it was true God knew it was true why persecutest thou me for telling the truth Joseph said I have sh
I have shaken chains in a dungeon for the truth's sake right why do we take
Joseph Smith who has an entire history of his life of suffering persecution
after persecution because he refused to lie about what the Lord had taught him and then all of a sudden on this one
topic John Bennett this lying womanizer he's telling the truth but Joseph Smith
is lying in every single thing he said on the topic of marriage including in his own scriptures because we have the
Book of Mormon is the is the most clear it is the strongest anti-polygamy book
of scripture we have in the entire Cannon followed only by the Doctrine and Covenants right we could go that's
that's I'm hoping we'll get into that discussion so Joseph Smith this this would be like a deception that's really
hard to understand and explain if we know and then we look into things like There Are No Children which we this is
what I find interesting more and more information has been coming out like crazy over the last 20 years or so right
and the more information we get the the weaker the um claim of Joseph Smith's
polygamy gets and the stronger the claim of his innocence of polygamy gets and we would expect the opposite to be
happening as we're getting more and more truth more access to documents more DNA more you know testing all of these
things that we are doing are showing are confirming in powerful ways
that Joseph was not a polygamist when the opposite should be happening truth is being revealed from the from the
housetops right and it's our choice to take it to the Lord and pray about it
and say are the things taught in the scriptures true are the things that Joseph Smith himself said true or should
we believe these other these other things okay couple more things before we
get back into the other things you brought up here um one thing and this is a very passionate
subject I I I'll be honest I I have covered I cover controversial topics
that's kind of what I do and I have had atheists after me I've had evangelicals
after me I've had post Mormon after me you know it's just I get a lot of criticism on a lot of different things I
have never had the level of criticism as the Jacob Hansen interview
I did on polygamy and then the walk that uh that I did talking about it after that I mean it has really okay been like
wow I mean this is a very emotional topic for people right
um but I want to cover something here also well let me start it with this so what about the Bible what what about uh
uh you know that this is something that I'm sure is brought up to you all the time but what about Abraham and Jacob
and their multiple wives or concubines um and the mention of wives
and concubines throughout the Old Testament well okay so again that's a really Broad question I've done episodes
on each of those things so I don't want to go too much into it but really quickly Abraham using Abraham's polygamy
to an anyway try to justify any idea of the of the um L of LDS polygamy is
really problematic right it is not the same thing even Jacob's polygamy is not the same thing first of all God never
commanded polygamy anywhere Doctrine and Covenants 132 has many just erroneous
statements and I don't think that God makes errors like in the very first verse it calls Isaac a polygamous which we know that that's not true and it says
throughout it that God commanded polygamy and you cannot find I know we try to twist lever at marriage which is
just silly we can talk about that if you want to go into it I don't think anybody who wants to support polygamy with
Joseph Smith and it being a legal spiritual law from God needs to go to
lever at marriage I don't that doesn't make any sense to me they do because that's the one time they can claim but anyway so God never commanded polygamy
so we can look at Abraham he had been given all of these promises he in well
Abram and Sarai is who they were at the time right and the pain of that
infertility brutal pain and in the law at that time we have oh I can't remember
what what the I I covered this a long time ago but we have cfor tablets we have laws from other cultures and from
that entire time where part of the law was a woman could use one of her slaves
as a surrogate that was the the that was the understanding of that culture right
so that is what um Sarai did Hagar was a slave girl they had picked
up in and on part of the GI we don't know she was a slave girl she was that's what handmade men and that's what that's
what she she was because she came from them with from Egypt she was part of the gifts that the king gave I still think we don't know that I mean there's a lot
of speculation in Jewish tradition showing that she she may have even been as high as the daughter of pharaoh I don't know that that's I mean that's an
that's an that's an assumption Well we'd have to get into it because Sarah beats her and Abram says do as you will with
her she's your servant she's your servant girl so so I mean we can argue that but we should get into the
scriptures and really look at it but in any case she was used as a surrogate right she was a slave girl who who they
had sexual access to and and could claim the fruit of her womb Sarah said I mean
Sarai said it may be that she will have a child for us for me Sarai was going to claim that child as her own as well
right if Abram had had access to better to to um better means to artificial inin
or to you know any kind of he would have used that they were just trying to have a child and there's no evidence that
Abram ever slept with her again after ishmail that was the only child and then
she they actually um stopped living I mean she she and her child were kicked
out of the um Community right she was I'm I'm they were abandoned in the desert and God took care of them which
was a blessing but Abraham when Abraham and Sarai were given the Covenant it was
between the two of them and is extremely clear throughout the scriptures including in the Book of Mormon where it says look to Abraham your father and
Sarah who bear you right there is one Covenant wife and one Covenant line that went through um through their one son
right and so the um you cannot make this Covenant include these other wives and
you'd have to did did Abraham commit adultery then see that's that these are the traps
you have no that's not a trap that's a fair question that's a fair question the law of the land at the time he was
living within that I'm not talking about the law of the land I'm talking about the law of God I mean we're talking about Abraham here no we're talking
about Abram when Abraham and they repented of that at least they no longer
lived in that way and a higher Covenant was given and a higher law was given then he was Abraham and he was living
that way now I will ask you this they we also know that Abraham Isaac and Jacob had slaves that's very clear so these
cultural practices of different times to different peoples are we going to claim that we are not in any way sullied with
the Bloods and blood and sins of Our Generation do we know that our culture is completely free and clear it couldn't
ever be condemned and we're living exactly how God would want us to live or are there cultural practices that maybe
are not in keeping with God's highest order but they're just part of our society right and so if we want to claim
that because of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob we needed to restore polygamy then why didn't we also need to restore
slavery and call that the highest holiest practice of God that needs to be part of Zion in the Celestial Kingdom
and here's a better one we have the story of Judah and Tomar which is a really important one to keep in mind um
Tamar was judah's daughter-in-law right and she disguised herself as a harlet
and because her husband died and and because of lover at marriage she wasn't allowed to marry outside to anyone else
and Judah didn't give um didn't give her the next son and so anyway she described herself as a harlot and Judah
impregnated her visiting a prostitute and that is the line through which Jesus is descended so we have to be really
careful to Jesus is our perfect example we have one perfect example and that is our Savior Jesus Christ we shouldn't
look to biblical examples and say Judah isn't a prophet Judah is a patriarch
he's not a prophet he's not someone that would I mean Abraham is the abrahamic
Covenant that we speak of Abraham is the icon Abraham is an Enoch Abraham is an
is is an Adam this is this is one of the greatest men we have to assume one of the greatest
men to ever have lived on the earth this is not Judah judah's a very Judah was involved with murder too I mean it's can
you always say that can't you always make an excuse like that the point I'm because Judah one Jah is one of the
Patriarchs and he is the the line that came through you can always make an excuse I'm telling you Abraham he also
comes from the lot lot's daughters and lot it's it's fine that's that's think
there's a point to that to be honest when Abraham became Abraham and was given the Covenant he had one Covenant
wife and that was Sarai who was also given a new name after Sarai passed away he married a different wife named Cura
and catura and Hagar were considered were not his Covenant wife so when it
talks about his concubines it's referring to those other wives Abraham had one Covenant wife that was Sarah I
mean Sarai and I Sarah and that is the line that it it talks a lot about in the
New Testament as well about we are the daughters of the I mean we are the children of the Covenant sure Covenant
line absolutely yeah and so if if we want to say that polygamy is a thing we are saying you can have a covenant you
can have many Covenant wives That's What early Mormon polygamy was and it's not true according to the um the example of
Abraham okay there's another thing that I wanted to bring up that that I saw a lot on the comments um that uh I am looking for for
oh one of the thing that's gets brought up and I think this comes from you or or maybe you're you're just adopting it but
it's Samuel right so this is this is second Samuel 12 and there's a comment about uh what
happens here and then they always use the jst I I seriously I got this like a dozen times as as as a proof
text uh that David never practiced uh or or or at least wasn't sanctioned from uh
from God it's 13 and David said unto Nathan I have sinned against the Lord and Nathan said unto David the Lord also
hath put away thy sin Thou shalt not die but in the jst hath not put away th sin right hath
not put away but again there's a distinction between the sin with basheba just like it says in the affidavit and
in the in the minutes and everything else in in church history there's a difference between the sin with Uriah
and with ba Sheba as compared to the other wives at least that's the way it's typically understood I don't see any
evidence in this scripture that that says that that David's other wives were not sanctioned
by God anywhere okay so so that's actually not my main argument with the
with the um David again there are so many directions to go with this um we
can break down 2 Samuel 128 but maybe it would be better to go to Jacob to if
that would be all right to go there first or we could go to mosiah 10 there are a lot of different choices but um if
we go to Jacob 2 I think it's interesting um sorry I've got my mic in
the way um let's see um okay so Jacob
2:23 says but the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes for behold thus sayith the Lord this people
begin to wax in iniquity they understand not the scriptures for they seek to
excuse themselves in committing whoredoms because of the things which were written concerning David and
Solomon and his son that that's important for us to pay attention to right are we
trying the narrative and the understanding on this clarifies this at least I'm not again even if I assume
that you're right right the the Nar The Narrative clarifies this as between what
is sanctioned by God and what is not that Solomon took on numerous other wives that were not allowed by God that
he that he did it in a way that took away from other men that that David did the same thing with Uriah and and that
there's a distinction there it so to me that doesn't explain what you're saying
let me go to the next verse and what I'm what I'm trying to say is with this verse the reason I'm going here we need
to be very careful to pay attention to the the fact that God is telling us not
to use the scriptures about David and Solomon to justify ourselves in in the
doctrine of many wives and concubines which is exactly what section 132 does so let me just read this I'm going to
disagree on that but but keep going they understand not the scriptures for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms because of the things which
were written concerning David and Solomon his son I should clarify also um The Book of Mormon always refers to
polygamy as whoredoms and what is written David and Solomon vers 24 verse 24 says behold David and Solomon truly
had many wives and concubines which thing was abominable before me saith the
Lord clarifies very clearly there what the Abomination was section 132 to rest
that and let's just let's just let your audience know section 132 was not anywhere during Joseph
Smith's lifetime Joseph and hyram both claimed that Joseph had a revelation on plur on Eternal Marriage which he taught
publicly which hyram read before the High Council right we and then um Joseph
Smith was killed in June of 1844 it wasn't until August of
1852 that Brigham Young presented section 132 for the first time it
directly opposed that section 101 that was in the Doctrine and Covenants or section 109 in the 1844 version it
wasn't added until the to the doctrine of covenants until 1876 the statement on marriage was added by Common the common
consent of the people it had to be voted on and accepted unanimously that section 132 was just added there was no common
consent of the people they finally had a vote on it in 18 a after it had already been added and it wasn't on that section
it was just we'll accept the scriptures and they made many changes so it's important to recognize this that section
132 is the one that that's why I call it 132 problems right we need to look at section 132 and determine if it truly is
the word of God it's also useful to recognize that section 132 came out at a very propitious time when um claims of
polygamy were starting to be spread and the government was making noise of starting to prosecute it and they needed
to um have a way to say this is a religious right this is what came from our founder and immediately Orson Pratt
went to Washington DC making that exact argument saying this is our religious right so it served a very important
political purpose as well coming forth when it did so it's not a revelation um
we have well it claims to be it claims to be I asked I asked what you think but we have um we also have a lot of
evidence I could show you a dozen documents right now is it a revelation let me let me
finish is it a revelation from God not all of it it incorporates part of a revelation from God and a lot of it is
cobbled together and made up just as they did with so many other documents from Joseph Smith like for example on
October 5th 1843 Joseph Smith says that he went up and down the street T preaching teaching
against um against polygamy no man shall have one wife that is written very
clearly in his journal then we can see where it was drafted and edited and the changes that were made until it became
no man shall have one wife unless I say otherwise for God has given me the power
over over this right we have that happening Time and Time and Time Again Joseph's words are changed to make room
for polygamy which they did not make room for and so that's why I think that we need to look at 132 with our open
mind and because this is why this really is important if we go to third Nephi 26
it tells us that we are under condemnation for taking lightly the for not believing what we have been given in
the Book of Mormon doctrine of covenants 84 tells us again it doesn't specify anything about polygamy there it
okay okay the Book of Mormon is the strongest anti-polygamy book of scripture that we have and we ignore and
rest those Those portions to explain against what go to say no it's okay we
can we can we don't have to listen to The Book of Mormon because we're going to focus on Section 132 instead and then
we're going to make any excuse like well it's not saying specifically about polygamy let's look at the Book of Mormon and see what it teaches that
we're ignoring I would strongly argue that polygamy is one of the main things
that that fits that bill that fits the bill of things that we are not paying attention to not hearkening and that
from the beginning we haven't that makes us makes so we can't receive more from God because we are not accepting what we
have been given this is why this is so important and if we follow that up with the um warnings of destructions that
come upon the people when we don't hearken to the Covenant that God established and gave us the Covenant of
marriage between one man and one wife we have that even in in the um in the proclamation on the family we warn of
destructions that will come because of the curses of O of um neglecting this Covenant and doing anything that is in
opposition to it right we need to pay attention to that so we as a church we're so um so eager and willing there
more to that that's a little Nuance but that's there there's I me let's there's
there is always a marriage between even even in polygamy it's a marriage between one woman and one man no it's not yes it
is we can go a marriage when you have a if you're a man that has in polygamy you're going
to go with your second wife and you're going to go to an altar and you're going to be married as man and woman and
where's your first wife where are your other wives they all of a sudden aren't there they don't exist I didn't say they
weren't there I'm saying the marriage the ordinance is between one man and one woman what a silly now that man may go
around and have other single ordinances with those but it's always the same thing in the endowment house there's not
a group there's not a group marriage the everybody's married to each other that is not that's not how it
works okay so all of a sudden it sounds to me like you're kind of making an argument for men not having to be
faithful to their wife as God that is that is see now that's ridiculous no I'm not going to accept that at all that is
ridiculous because you're saying that a marriage I'm saying marriages between one man and one woman and you're saying
what polygamy fits that and and I'm I'm not I'm not supporting polygamy I wish
I'd never heard of it I don't want anything to do with it okay right but but but I'm I prefer to search for the
truth I think you're trying to search for the truth I am right I am trying to search for the truth and and if you want
if you're looking in and and you're you're picking certain sources you want to go with and certain sources you don't want to go with I'm dealing with all of
the sources I we just spent the first time dealing with you're dismissing a lot of them you're dismissing a lot of them and so oh I thought I was answering
them pretty well okay no I think you go researched everything really well but you're dismissing the affidavits you're
dismissing everything post Joseph Smith as being part of part of a look look I'm
not even saying you're wrong that's not my point my point is my point is you're picking what to choose what what you
want what let me back up I'm investigating it and seeing what
seems the most credible I I agree with that that's fine I agree with that 100%
otherwise I wouldn't even have you on right okay so it's what I'm saying is is that
in the family proclamation if you want to you're specifically looking at scripture or a proclamation it says
marriages between a man and a woman marriage is was between a man and a woman in each of those instances in
polygamy it was between a man and a woman every marriage was between one man
and one woman that's all I'm saying I'm teal and as clear as I can so if I went and
married another husband and practiced poly andry that would also be a marriage between one man and one woman and that
would be fine so so we could practice polyandry and still fit within no that's
never been a part of it that's never that was never a part of polygamy if we believe the stories about
Joseph Smith it absolutely was and we know that Brigham Young married other men's wives well well again you're going
back to some other things that could have to do with things like the law of adoption you have to go back with things how much did they really understand the
ceiling process I mean I'm guessing you believe in the ceiling right I mean
between a man and a woman to be sealed in a taught Eternal Marriage okay yes so we didn't really I don't think that
there was a full understanding of what the sealing process was back then everybody was trying to get sealed I
mean Joseph Smith had men sealed to him he had there were a lot of different ceilings that went on trying to be part
of the family of God and knowing that this was part of what was needed for the new and Everlasting
Covenant right I'm just trying to make sense of how you're jumping to that I said when I said that I could be sealed
to another husband and have that still be marriaged between one man and one husband by how you're explaining it and you're saying that wasn't ever part of
it and I said well yes it was we have a lot of stories of Joseph Smith supposed po Andre which I reject but we do know
that briam young and married other men's wives right Z detha Huntington Jacobs is
one example of a man who was a worthy righteous man whose wife was taken from him those marriages were between one man
and one woman that's still that's still between that's my point is it's still a mar the marriage the the
agreement what you're doing there that is between one man and one woman it always is okay see I I think that is
such an interesting twist because you ha when you have a man who is married to
multiple women sure he's having sex with them one at a time but there is a like
like let's read Doctrine Covenants 42:22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy
heart and shallal cleave unto her and none else right Joseph Smith made these
proclamations multiple times I not supporting polygamy in my statement I am saying that a marriage in polygamy back
then was between one man and one woman that is a la of that is the agreement if
there's a contract written up in that marriage it would be between the man and the woman well there was because there
was already what I'm is is that part of your argument I don't I don't agree with
which part because the marriage is between every one of those marriages is between one man and one
woman so okay I okay I'm just gonna have to wrap my brain around how to even respond to this because it seems so um
so rested it seems so it feels really dishonest to me I know you're not attempting to do that but in the
endowment house under what they supposed was the law of Sarah which is one of the not very nice parts of section 13 2 the
first wife was required to put her husband put the new wife's hand in her husband's hand that was part of the
tradition she was very much part of that say she wasn't part of it that's not what I said you're resting it now now
you're resting it I didn't say that so so let me let me let's go here
for a second um having many wives and concubines is called an Abomination we can show that biblically throughout the
scriptures but I think it's really important to pay attention to there are a couple of different things I wanted to
talk about but we can people always like to cite verse 30 of Jacob 2 and say oh
look it's a loophole God gave us a way out that we don't have to listen which I think is a terrible resting of this
scripture we could go into the many reasons but I first want to pay attention to the verses that follow verses 31 through 35 and actually into
Jacob 3 because it um continues the sermon in the original book of R and it wasn't separated out right and so for
behold I the Lord have seen the sorrow and heard the mning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem
that's an important verse and we could talk about why what what Abomination Lehi was calling out in Jerusalem Hint
it was polygamy that was a huge part of what Lehi was prophesying against the people and was warning them of
Destruction which we see as a consistent pattern absolutely I don't think there I don't think people argue that oh they
don't no I mean that's that's pretty obvious that this is what was going on in Jerusalem but again the issue is
there's a second layer on that right the issue is is is it sanctioned okay so if
it's not sanctioned I'm just going I'm just giving you the narrative right it's it's not like I'm trying to prove this
okay oh okay okay right but the the the narrative here is that polygamy and you
know this obviously the that polygamy at times is sanctioned by God right A lot
of times it's at at an exodus or it's a new dispensation it's a new beginning
that's usually where we see this happen I mean if you go through and you see where where where a man has had multiple
uh sexual partners that seems to be sanctioned by God or that at least the narrative is that it's sanctioned by God
right that's the narrative The Narrative is trying I'm trying to give you a leeway here so but when you see that
it's usually at a new dispensation that's usually when you see it okay so let's let's look at the dispensations
Adam and Eve Noah and his wife with their sons and their one wife each mmhm Lehi and
sah and their sons and their one wife each I can show you in the scriptures where it was exactly a one: one ratio
with all of Lehi and Sarah's sons and the daughters of ishmail I think I don't think they what none of them none of them
practice polygamy all of them were okay I thought you were talking about Lehi okay multiply and replenish and raise up Lehi was not a polygamist none of his
sons were polygamists they were all commanded to to raise up seed unto the Lord right so what dispensation are you
talking about where there is authorized it's not just dispensations it's it's just beginnings of time is usually when
you see something like a new A New Beginning for example David right David David unifying everything and bringing
everything together David is now at the beginning of this Abraham is at the beginning of a dispensation he is the
leader of a new people well wasn't Adam the beginning of a new dispensation happen every time I didn't say it said
every dispensation and we just talked about Abraham that he had one Covenant wife right and David his practices two
different two different women and how many were part of the Covenant I don't the answer that as far
as the Covenant that was of under the abrahamic Covenant it would be just Sariah right or just Sarah just Sarah
and that was the abrahamic Covenant right that's what we're talking about that is the Covenant that we're talking about very very possible so so let me
just so quickly I was going to read these verses because it talks about the suffering of the women my daugh I will not have my daughters tears many hearts
died pierced with deep wounds the go God gives us the reason that this is such an
Abomination and that it's always prohibited and it is because of what it does to the women and the children God
cares about the experiences and the hearts the tender feelings of women and children those are God's priority which
is the reason he gives us so what we are saying with this narrative is actually
extremely destructive we are saying if God at some time has a different priority that he no longer cares about
the hearts breaking of the women and children because we know that that is what happens in polygamy every time if
we look at David that what we know of his wives they suffered if we read the
journals of the early Mormons in Utah the women suffered they suffered
terribly under polygamy they become possessions That's What doctrine of covenants 132 that's what finally
convinced me finally that polygamy was not of God with all of my studying was reading Jacob 2 and3 side by side with
doctrine of covenants 132 and recognizing these are not from the same God right doctrine of covenants 132 what
it calls it is the doctrine and practice of having many wives and concubines the doctrine is called having many wives and
concubines I would invite anybody to search the Book of Mormon for the term many wives and concubines and see if
that could ever be a practice I like I would invite people to tell me what
abomination of God sometimes commands sometimes wants for his own purposes
especially when he tells us why it is why it is disallowed why it is so abominable okay and again I I I think
you have some good arguments I don't think that's one of them because I I don't I don't think that does god
require us to do things that we're going to suffer through absolutely did he ask Abraham to sacrifice his own son yes did
did Nephi have to murder laan yes right those are things that are
required murder the the hearts of of our wives and children and it's not by their choice let's let's go ahead and read not
laan's choice either it wasn't Isaac's choice either you know it's not comping to all in my opinion that's not a good
argument that's an emotional argument oh okay okay we have to pause on this for just a second because this gets really
to the heart of it and it gets deep because it's an emotional argument God
is saying all throughout this sermon that the women's emotions matter The
Tender Hearts the tender feelings that is something that God gave to women and if we look at what happens in polygamy
if we look at the sermons of briam young and he Kimble how often they tell the women that their feelings don't matter
whatever God tells them to do they just have to do it and they are put down all the time and that gets morphed into what
we now have as keep sweet keep sweet no matter what right and that means bury
all of your feelings in polygamy both in current polygamy right that we have seen
in the fundamentalist but also in traditional polygamy in in early Mormonism women are taught that their
feelings are sinful that their feelings are something they need to overcome that
if if you go through the sermons women's feelings are a problem that they need to just deal with because what God commands
is what matters at the same time if we read those early sermons men's lust is
something that God has to gratify we have ORS and Pratt in that very first August 1852 um special conference that they
held so that they could reveal section 132 one of the quot quotes is what are we to do for we've got a a a human
nature to Grapple with a fallen nature to Grapple with he's talking about how there are houses of prostitution
everywhere and in Mormonism we can't have those so what are we to do and he says God oh I wish I could I wish I
could remember it right now I have been able to remember it in the past but God solves this problem by giving his
Faithful Servants multiple wives right so we have this problem where we I like
I'm I really as a woman saying look God cares about his daughters God is not
going to sacrifice his daughters on the altar of men's lust in polygamy men's attaining to power and you tell me
that's an emotional argument that is really a problem for me if we read through and read what God says and how
God cares and how God treats women's emotions compared to what 132 says yeah
okay so number one I agree with you in in in looking at that and especially that sermon it's the way I usually look
at the the issues with men and women are the hormones and and so what you're B basically saying is your your uh the
sermon there and the idea is that well we're going to satisfy men's hormones
but not women's right we're not we're not going I'm not just talking about sexual hormones right I'm just talking about I'm talking about hormones period
you're going to you're going in other words men have to deal with hormones and women have to deal with hormones and we
have sometimes have to deal with those differently and you're saying that men are taken care of there but women aren't because it's against women's emotions
and it's her their hormones and their emotions and it's for men's hormones and and their lust
right I mean I'm agreeing with you on that okay I I I would I would frame it
very differently I wouldn't fra like if what I started to understand I'd been so naive about in marriage marriage is
challenging right we have to work hard to keep our marriages strong and it takes a lot of sacrifice and a lot of
love and a lot of selflessness and a lot of forgiveness right and when we're equally yolked with one husband and one
wife both each partner is cares as much as the other one or should or ideally
does right we we each are invested when a man has multiple wives all of a sudden
there is not an you are not equally yolked there is not an equal investment women have no um no choice but to try to
please to try to keep sweet to try to be the nicest with the cleanest house and the best right all of a sudden women
lose and in fact heby Kimble talked about this when he he gave a speech um in theal discourses I could find the
citation but where he says my wives say you need me to get to heaven and he says no I don't when I go to heaven there are
millions more and there I'll go to Brother Joseph and he'll say he'll give us a new suit of clothes and new rings for our fingers and say where are your
wives and I'll say they wouldn't follow me and he'll say come there are thousands more have all you want that's a quote from HEB SE Kimble women are
completely disempowered so it does multiple things first of all that sacred
um Unity of marriage where there is one person that is what differentiates this
this relationship is it is the one person that you are intimate with in this most sacred way and when we break
that a woman in order to feel um safe enough to give herself in that way needs
to feel protected needs to feel like she is the only one this is a special so
it's not to me just hormones it's about the entire makeup of a woman that a for
a woman to feel safe and loved and protected and not like she's comp competing in all of these ways right
that is what we are breaking and then we take it beyond that beyond that being broken to now women have no um ability
to even have have any impact in their relationship they just have to take what
they get and that is what we see throughout the history of early Utah look I I have no no qualms with anything
you're saying zero right I think is one of the most difficult I can't imagine I
cannot even imagine now I want to the second point I wanted to make is it's not just about lust that's not fair
because now you're you're also kind of minimizing men down to one thing is a sexual animal and that's not true I mean
a man what's that I said I I was just quoting Orson Pratt but I agree with you
I mean before that though it's not you for a man to think that he's gonna have
and again we're talking about something that has nothing to do with I thought our subject was going to be here but I don't for a man to think that he's going
to take on another wife and and that all that's in his mind is the sexual component that that's either a very
short-sighted man or or or you know it's any man that
thinks that how can you possibly think that that is not going to be one of the most difficult things in the world I mean as you said marriage is hard
marriage is difficult you have to work on it it it's something where you're equally yolked to bring on another
individual into that marriage for the man where he also going to have to try
and be equally yolked with her that that is an unbelievable difficult
thing very very difficult for the man to do that and so the reason I bring that up is because so many of the comments
that I had on there was that's what it is the man it's man's sexual lust look any man that's beyond 20-some years old
and has been married is not gonna want this they're not going to want it it it
is I I cannot think of a friend or any body I know that would say I want this
that and that's not the subject that I wanted to talk about but I but as you bring that up I'm like come on that that
isn't fair that isn't fair I know this is the women that get object objectified
with this I know that they're the ones that have to deal with so much of it but men have to deal with it some things
also on this thing and and it's it's to me it's an argument also against
polygamy it should be a male argument against polygamy I think that there is I think that there is both absolutely and
and I can share a little bit of it I think that God throughout the scriptures if we read what God teaches us and how
how God wants us to turn our hearts toward our spouse right what God hath put together let no man put us under we
are supposed to be equally yolked and United and cleave together as one flesh and let not let anything come in between
that polygamy completely breaks that and turns both Partners Hearts away from their spouse in a myriad of ways so
really quickly men often men have spoken to have um very
heartbroken expressed how this idea of polygamy when they felt either unloved by their wife or unsupported by their
wife they could imagine what some of their future wives would be like right they could um like like it turns your
heart to oh instead of treasuring this one wife you have you can start envisioning what other wives will be
like I've even heard men say this aloud in happy ways like it's okay that my wife has that weakness because I'll have
a wife that has that strength at some point right I I don't know a single man that would say that honestly I'm not
saying you haven't heard that I'm just saying I don't know a single man right and I that would say that okay I I I so
I just you just have to take my word for it because these I do I take your word for it I'm just telling you and then at the same time an outlier right I've
heard from so many women who well there are different reactions but some women
feel like they can't give their heart fully to their husband because they feel like at some point their heart would be broken Beyond repair when at some point
takes another wife in the Celestial Kingdom or whatever it may be and and then there are also women who imagine
yeah I'm dealing with this loser of a husband right now but someday I'm going to be married to this righteous righteous prophet and be part one of his
wives right so it does these things and I want to just quickly talk about like like I love talking to you as a
monogamous man right because there is a training that happens in monogamy I actually did an episode where I studied
out in depth studies that had be done been done specifically on men men's brains the male brain and the hormones
you're talking about right and so this is really interesting if I can talk about it really quickly a man when he
gets married there is a transformation that occurs in his brain a monogamous man and his testosterone goes down and
his oxytocin goes up and there are really important reasons for that testosterone is the conquest right it's
you're competing you're trying to its status and it's Conquest so when you are a single guy trying to find out where
you are in the market trying to find your wife right your testosterone is really high once you are married that
changes to not be about conquest and status but to be about bonding and
protection right and that requires a different hor hormonal makeup so your oxytocin Rises then when a man's and his
wife have a child that transformation happens more and the man's oxytocin raises Rises more that's why when we
have like War councils like with like the example I'm thinking is Native
American war councils in movies and often the Young Warriors that are like no we'll go to war and it's the fathers
that're like no let's look for every other possibility first right and it's that different brain chemistry
polygamous men these Studies have been done polygamous men in polygamous communities or polygamous men do not
experience that same brain chemistry change because a man once he's married
he's still on the prow and he's still worried about where he fits in this hierarchy polygamous societies are
extremely hierarchal hierarchical always and unsustainable so he's still right so
he's still prowling and I have a sister who worked in construction for a while and she came home and talked to me once
about these men that are always on the prow like the polygamous men and his wife and three little kids are sitting
there but a young pretty girl walks in and he's immediately in that same single flirty mode because they're always on
the prow so actually our brain chemistry shows us that there is a huge difference
between a man a monogamous man has to live his life experiencing that
discipline of oh I'm not going to look oh that you know what I mean a man is not flirting with other women he knows
that he is faithful to his one wife and that is a discipline that is developed over time through that practice right it
changes the way a man's brain develops and that's where we get to the story of David David who was standing out
watching the roof watching the mikva where the women women took their ritual cleansing bath
right he was a man who had never been taught he'd never experienced that
chemical change so he was a victim of lust because he always fed his lust until finally it got to it got him to
the point that he lusted after something he couldn't have right he had always given into his lust so much that he
couldn't accept any boundary even if it was another man's wife if he lusted after her he got to have her because
that is how he had trained his brain so we can show that by brain chemistry
men who are not faithful to their wives polygamous men are not even physically capable of loving their one wife and
their children the same way that a monogamous man can yeah like the fingerprint of God's
creation is throughout all of creation so that's why I object to this idea that
God sometimes commands it and I will really quickly I know I've been talking for a minute but let me also say that
does not align at all with the sermons of the early polygamous leaders they did
not not in any way see polygamy as an exception to the rule they saw it as not
only necessary for for exaltation but the actual means of exaltation they said
it was absolutely necessary and that it could never be done away with that it
became the center of their Doctrine so we can't this idea we have that it's exception not not the rule is our
attempt to try to make all of this messiness fit but it doesn't work it doesn't align with the Scriptures it doesn't align with the preachings of the
polygamous leaders and we we need to do better yeah okay so again I don't want
this to devolve into a you know a a Pro versus a a an anti- polygamist type of a
thing I am not pro polygam and most people aren't they're not and and and
what happens again I'm going off of a a lot of re reflection here of uh or or of
uh input from the comment section on these videos I've done right it's like
it's like oh so you love polygamy you really want polygamy you know and what kind of why are you such a sinner why
are you you know and it's like what are you talking about I don't I don't nobody I don't know anybody who wants that I
really don't I don't know anybody I've had these discussions I can't no man I know could possibly think of not of of
having another woman in his life it you know just from the the the the uh the
bonding perspective number one and secondly the the the difficulty final
the uhuh right the difficulty of the whole thing right but right and I
appol this seems to devolve into a oh you're Pro polygamy you want it so badly
that you have to argue that Joseph Smith introduced polygamy and and that's that's that's wrong it's wrong people
are thinking they're saying I'm going along with the statements I'm going
along with Section 132 and I I know fine I understand you're trying to say that these aren't valid but it's it's that's
the wrong argument and and if people are going to argue that Joseph Smith didn't introduce polygamy if you're going to go
out and point a finger to everybody who says no I think he did and say well that's because you want polygamy that's
a ridiculous argument I agree with you yeah I hope that that's I hope that's not the argument you've heard me making
um I I I I hope that that's not what I sound like to you well I don't know I'm asking you I guess no I I think I think
we do need to be careful because there are I I have engaged with a lot of
engaged I have discoursed with many polygamist men or Pro polygamy men and I
know that there are like like I appreciate that there are a lot of men who look at this and say I want no part of that I wish that
were more Universal than it is it's not Universal in fact oh if I could find it there was a picture that some some one
of the guys that used to argue with me had as his um Facebook profile picture and it was just this little cartoon
drawing of this return missionary with these seven really cute women like like girls hanging all over him and it was
quoting Isaiah 4:1 right and I mean there is this single man what was it a
single man doing that I have no idea and like I said I have seen these men flirting with other women I have at
times been um approached by married men who thought I was um friendly to
polygamy right like like I and then it's also you know I think that people do go through times in their lives where
they've been married and maybe a romantic feeling starts happening with somebody else and it's really easy to
let that enter in and and this is just what you're used to and there's this exciting new thing that The Grass Is Always Greener right that's a great time
for this doctrine of many wives and concubines this deceptive Spirit to come in so I don't think I definitely don't
think we should say if you believe that Joseph is a polygamist then that must mean you love polygamy I I no I wouldn't
I I hope that that is not an argument that people are relying on at the same time I think a lot of them are okay so
so I would I wouldn't agree with that but at the same time I think that we need to be careful to not just say no man would want this that just is isn't
true you know and sometimes women fall into it as well this like we see it happening
repeatedly okay so it's a d That's why we have to be so clear about it that's
why we have to be so clear to say this was never of God because it is very easy to have that deceptive Spirit of
Temptation enter in yeah and well again I just want to be clear that people that
believe that J of Smith wanted or or in initiated polygamy doesn't mean they
want it all right it doesn't me they want it that is not cause and correlation there are not it's I think
we' I think we've made that clear right okay so now let me back up a little bit and and and talk a little bit more about
the bridge of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young here uh now I've heard you say this and imply these things is Brigham
Young and John Taylor and others involved with Joseph Smith's killing people always bring that up my
issue is polygamy but you but I've heard you say it I watched it when you implied
it I I don't know I um so Justin Griffin
did the movie who killed Joseph Smith and before I watched that movie I had already been doing my pod podcast for
quite a while before that movie came out before that movie I didn't know there were any questions to ask about the
martyrdom I'd never thought about it so he presents his theory in that and it did make me aware oh there are some
problems with the martyrdom okay I didn't know that he presents a theory I have done because of the work I've done on the Expositor and looking at the laws
and The Fosters and the Higg bees and others that were involved in that as well as the people in Carthage I I see a
lot lot more complexity and that's just not an issue I get into at all I for me
for me polygamy is a um the having section 132 and believing
it causes harm it like I have I have engaged with so many women who have just
been through hell trying I know I get it understand and so
that's why I haven't ever talked to someone who the martyrdom causes them pain or or or introduces Abomination and
claims but do you believe that the cabal of the Utah Saints had something to of
that that were Pro polygamy needed to get rid of Joseph Smith and
Hyrum and maybe Samuel and and so they were involved with murdering him that is that is a
common narrative that comes out there from those that are anti uh I'm not gonna that that are anti- Joseph Smith
polygamy let's say right for those of us who don't believe that Joseph originated FY yeah all I'm going to say is I would
just invite people to study that out for themselves and make their own conclusions on it because I think it is um like you know I told just I guess it
puts in a really awkward spot because I don't want to throw people in my community who believe that under the bus right I don't want to say oh they're
completely wrong you should be able you sound like you're pretty strong opinioned and you you are searching for
the truth on this is that something that is an option for you what I okay I care about history I
care about sources I don't want to set up stakes and say I won't believe that if the evidence points to something I
will believe it that isn't something I feel compelled to deeply steud out and like I said I see other complexity I
don't I personally and I don't want to you know I don't think that those theories account enough for the um
people in Carthage for the EXP for The Fosters laws and higes and others who we know were conspiring so it doesn't work
for me exactly but at the same time you know we'll have to wait and see what we
find out it's certainly not something that I that I feel compelled to talk about or study out I have my hands full
with polygamy so you know and I kind of I feel like you're asking me kind of like I I don't
know I just I just want people to let me be with my topic without saying choose a site on this other thing that's not
that's not the topic that I study out I do not know enough about but it's relevant to the entire subject because
if Joseph Smith was not introducing polygamy and Brigham Young wanted it and John Taylor wanted it and others wanted
it then they there's their motivation right so so it's like that that is very
relevant and there are a number of people that do not believe that Joseph Smith initiated polygamy and I'm content
to let people make their own conclusions on that it's not a topic that I've studied enough to speak authoritatively
about it I think that there are other people who I have seen a lot more evidence from of their involvement in
Joseph Smith's death that's that's what I would say I tend to think it was the
people who anyway who we who we think it was right the mob okay um so let's let's
let me ask you one more question before I move out the next thing here what wouldn't we see
historically more people coming out and saying talking about Brigham Young as a
conspirator or or or those that were involved with him there I don't know of anything maybe I'm wrong but I don't
know of any historical document that we have that says that Brigham Young made
this up and this is all a lie and and uh um you know it was it Joseph Smith never
taught it and and so how can it be that that conspiracy from those
men was so sealed tight that nobody ever said anything about it being a
conspiracy so we actually have tons of sources saying those very things I I
think one of the problems that we have is that we are only aware of our own history right in in the church we're kind of insular and insulated so we are
not aware of the rlds church history and the documentation that they have and the many testimonies that were given there
we have Mark Twain he wrote a book about um Mormons and he talked about that this was Brigham's invention that this was
briam Young's Doctrine we have like I said Skyler kfax there's a woman that wrote a book oh I'll have to find it I'm
just think no LDS Source right um well LDS sources were here saying that
narrative so I I mean no we I don't think we would except we have people for any of the women that said that this was
made up that BR started this and and and it was never actually sanctioned by God
or it was not that Joseph Smith didn't teach this do we have anything at all
saying that this was kind of taken over by Brigham Young and initiated by him Emma Smith gave repeated testimony
throughout her life saying that Joseph never did this and saying that Brigham Young did okay is there is there anybody
else anybody else who said anything many many others especially in the rlds church so talking about latterday Saint
just just in that in that tradition because they don't have a lot to do with briam young right I mean they they
you're talking about did in na they had a lot to do they didn't really like Brigham Young a whole lot well I guess
I'm confused about what you're asking you know like like well is there anyone in the LA that were Latter-Day
Saints that said that this was a conspiracy that said that this the whole
polygamy thing because obviously the women would have a lot of motivation on this and and and you know did is there any
Source anywhere that says Brigham Young conspired with John Taylor and others or
however and Joseph Smith Never initiated this so I've told you a lot of sources already and as I said we also have
Brigham Young saying that this was his doctrine that he introduced it we have many people quoting briam young as
saying that this was his Doctrine so I I mean if if what you're I think what you're getting to is you're saying there
can't conspiracies can't exist because someone would have said something some point right is that kind of the question
you're asking no I'm just saying usually you would see something come about you know one of the women you know in 1860
1880 whatever that's going to come out and say something you know my husband's
dead now now I'm going to say something um Smith he never taught this and this
was all made up through big bringham young and should have never been a part of our practice Yeah so I think that you
are setting up some interesting boundaries because first of all if it was going to be a UT UT we had people
that fled Utah that went back to the rlds church and wrote their stories about what was happening on in Utah and
how false it was and how problematic it was so we would have to show how a source like that could have been
preserved in Utah right because the sources were pretty The Narrative we've been given was pretty controlled by the
leaders of the church so I'm just saying yes we do have many people on the record who said this was not Joseph Smith and
who and we have many people who said this was never God so I think that we should not just throw those out okay
because I I again I'm not aware of that i' I've asked several people to give me something like that I haven't nobody's
been able to come up with it I can send you a bunch of stuff if you that would be awesome okay I move on to the temple
because this is an overlapping subject here um what are your thoughts on the temple should the is the temple real is
it something we should be having is it you know this is very much tied a lot of
people are going to tie this to Bram young and not Joseph Smith um that the temples weren't meant to be what they
are uh from uh based on what Joseph Smith envisioned this to be what what
are your thoughts on the temple so as I said I'm one who I just want the truth so I will study it out and see where it
leads me and try to find it I trust I think that's what faith actually is right because faith is to believe things
which are not seen which are true if we have if we believe something that's not true it's not actually Faith so I want
to know that my faith is rooted in real things so I did do um the best I could
to explore the the or origin of the temple and I did that with sincere questions because when I started my um
podcast I had no idea of um I didn't know the depth of any of this I um my
15-year-old is named Brigham you know like like I didn't have I'm not anti
when I started studying and researching and reading in depth the words of our early leaders it was devastating it's
really hard to learn what's in our history right and so it made me ask a lot of questions because I've gone
through most of my marriage when I could going through the to the temple weekly I would get up early in the morning and go
you know hurry back to nurse the baby that's like like I've had a close connection to the temple but I also saw
things that I tried to make work for many years and tried to understand okay God and I always was I always was asking
like does God go to the temple like we do what is what is eternal what would the temple ceremony in Zion look like
where did the temples come from like how should we understand this and what do the symbols mean and you know I always have been open wanting to seek that so
when I did um my study to try to understand in and then I will say that
for me um I did struggle deeply and profoundly with 2020 and 2021 and um I
some people don't know my story but it was actually a very unique experience how um traumatized I was during that
time and and I really struggled with the temple um specifically I can go into a
little bit of the story but just know that there was like some real PTSD from some things that happened during that
time period and involving the temple so I for a long time was just like and I
was I was anyway I guess I'm telling too much I was angry I was angry by being told you can't go to the temple we lost
children we lost a child in 2020 and a child in 2021 and the temple was shut down the world was shut down there was
no um support there wasn't a funeral there wasn't do you know what I mean like here I have been faithful my whole
life and all of a sudden when I need um when I need that support it's not there
and I'm told you going to the temple is a privilege not a right you shouldn't expect to go to the temple there were things that I heard that and then and
then I had um some people unfortunately because I really was appalled by what I saw happening in 2020 and just felt like
what can I do to save the freedom of my Society you know those are things I care about deeply and um so was speaking out
in opposition to things that I found to be very troubling in the church's handling of that and I did have a couple
of people warn me or tell me that I better be careful because I have a daughter on the other side who wants to
see me again and if I keep doing what I'm like weaponized this idea of Eternal families against me in a way that I
found to be appalling and and was the first time I was like live I I I I
that's so unfortunate I can't I just can't believe that people say that kind of thing I it wasn't everybody but yeah
well and and and you know I listened to General Conference um about a year after that after we had um lost our second
daughter that we lost and um and something very similar was said um in in
one of the sessions of General Conference that hit me the same way and it so so I um you know and then and then
because of I ended up having to be in the hospital with my daughter in 2020 in a really unfortunate time and the treat
that I exper if I told you the stories you would be completely appalled right and I ended up with PTSD and then um I
had to go back to the hospital with my son four weeks later who had a terrible fall and you know because I couldn't
wear the mask I was anyway like the the security guard with handcuffs was
standing right next to me threatening me if I took the mask off it well I didn't know if my son would die four weeks
after my because he had a traumatic brain injury anyway it thing after thing during that time period it was really
really awful right and so um so when I was doing my podcast it as I saw
teachings of briam Yang that had been in the temple it made you know like we have
a lot of we have had a lot of relics of briam y's doctrines that I don't see
coming through Joseph Smith in the Temple and so I wanted to understand
what is true of God what is what are these problematic doctrines what is the
temple so I just it did a did a um did my best to research that with an open
heart and an open mind trying to study it out and um and I do I will say that the stories that we tell about the um
about Joseph Smith giving the temple ceremony in the upper room of the Red Brick Store in was it May or June of
1842 I don't I don't find those stories to have good um support as I studied
them out so that made me go okay I don't know where the temple came from and I
and I did my um series on the temple and I will say that I worked very hard be I
did not want to talk about that because the I know that people say all kinds of things about me but one thing that I
take very seriously is I never want to weaken or destroy faith I think that
faith is so precious faith in God and my mother who is going to be 90 this next
month listens to my podcast and she's gone to the temple you know like like especially as she's been older and a
widow she just goes regularly and finds so much peace and joy there and I did not want to say anything to take that
away from her or to for anybody and I don't want faith is so precious and it's
so easy for people to lose their faith in the church and then all of a sudden they go down this path where they don't believe in God anymore right so so my
whole goal is to preserve Faith so I didn't even talk about the temple until I was given the answers from the Lord to
tell me how I could talk about it in ways that I thought preserved faith and really what my takeaway was at that
point was um let's like like my hope is that we can have our relationship with
the temple be mediated by God meaning if we feel inspired to go to the temple go to the temple because I believe so much
that God honors faith and if people when we make the sacrifice to build temples
and the collective faith of the people honoring temples God respects that and honors it and and the other Insight that
I had was that every single Temple was built by through problems like the first
temple built by Solomon it was a fallen polygamist King who built it right and yet God honored that Temple the next
Temple was built by King Herod a terrible character and yet Jesus Herod added to it it was not built by it was
zerel and bble in in uh earlier on toward the end of probably fourth
Century okay but it was called King herod's Temple right and Jesus expected
that Temple to be honored he called at my father's house he cleansed it he attended it right so those are the
important things to recognize is that the temple has power regardless of of
what of who built it or what it comes from so that's the question is God what do you want me to do do you want me to
go to the temple to receive this power so that's where I was and that's what I when where I shared my evidence and then
I am recently though because oh boy I'm sharing a lot of personal stuff that
maybe isn't necessary but I guess it kind of goes to the question I I have four years um like I I had made it clear
on my podcast I've gone once since the lockdown and um I had beautiful
neighbors that invited me to go and I knew I couldn't go with them but I just was like okay I'm GNA try and go to the
temple but I spent the whole time just meditating breathing trying to you know like I really did have PTSD um from my
experiences both at the hospital and some experiences in the temple during that time that were really really negative and so I was able to just go
and breathe through it and that was the only time I had gone and um but then I was kind of just praying like God should
I go back to the temple like like realizing that my temple recommend was going to be up for Renewal and and what
do you want me to do God right and um and so I was praying about it and I just kept feeling this like kind of repulsion
away from the temple like like oh like every time I would pray should I go I felt that and I didn't know and I did I
was TR I was seeking to understand is this just my drama is this just me or is this that there's something about the
temple that because it has polygamy in it and because it has these other things in it you know God does not dwell in
Unholy temples right should I not go and so a little while ago it's been a couple of months ago and I was um anyway it was
a one of those series of experiences with the Lord and I was profoundly profoundly um invited to go to the
temple by the Lord and I went and I had an incredible um experience there and it
filled me again because I guess I just I what I'm do part of what I'm doing on my podcast is sharing my journey sharing
what I'm learning sharing my seeking I try really hard to not give people conclusions I always say you know study
it out let me know what I'm missing what like I don't want to tell people but but I but I do want to ask questions and
investigate and try to find truth and so it was you know and and there are people who are kind of in my community who are
vehemently opposed to the temple so me sharing that brought a lot of backlash from those people as well you know but
um but for me it filled me with hope and with light and and and I do know that
the spirit of God is in the temples um and and I'm open to seeking what else
the Lord wants to help me understand about them but um but no people spread
this is what's happening there are I know you don't um experience this there are many people who love polygamy or who
are very committed to our polygamy narrative and so they are deeply opposed to what I'm doing so they go through and
data mine and try to find things that I've said that they can twist or misrepresent or like like the video that
Jacob Hansen did was terribly misrepresented on the things that I've said and and um you know they're either
just trying to defend the church narrative or defend those historians or defend polygamy so I appreciate you
asking me and letting me speak for myself I have never said that the Temple is satanic or that it's evil or that we
shouldn't go I have never said anything about garments I I wear my garments right so the things that people say
about me let's just not do that and and I welcome anyone to ask me any question any time yes I am willing to ask
questions that maybe some people are unwilling to ask or uncomfortable having asked yes that's who I am that's how I
learn but I have enough faith in God that um the answers that that I'll that
we'll get more truth that way right if Joseph Smith hadn't been willing to ask the question that no one else would have dared ask and that brought all kinds of
heat and lies upon him we wouldn't have gotten the restoration I think asking questions is good yeah I appreciate that
and that's a good way to end this uh um and I appreciate you seeking things I
mean that's not that's I I I don't agree with certain things and maybe some big things here but I I appreciate people
looking into things and researching and and looking into it and being on a truth journey and eventually hopefully we can
all end up at the same place and that's aligned completely with truth right and so I I do appreciate that that's why I
wanted to bring you on i' have seen some of your your uh your content and you're controversial and and I'm controversial
so that makes sense too so anyway thanks so much Michelle for coming on and I hope we can talk again soon thanks Greg
I appreciate it all right
