Paul Mero is a culture warrior veteran. Washington DC, Utah State politics, and politics within The Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints. He has experience and insights to them all.
Should we engage in "Babylon?" Do we look to change policy, law, and social mores in our societies or do we focus on our families and "invite" the world to live the Gospel?
What about within the Church? Do we do anything within the Church to keep Babylon out?
there's a reason why we fought for it as a as an ideal in in civil society that
marriage ought to be between a man and a woman why would we do that Greg why would we go out and and do proposition a
why did we fight in Hawaii and Vermont and California and massach why do we do
all this kind of stuff well I believe the seed of it is the doctrine that we
understand about the new and Everlasting Covenant and we don't want the rain to
pour so heavy on everybody that they have no hope that they can't find the
ark they can't see it because Society mixing metaphors because Society
now is so corrupt that that you only see corrupt
[Music]
all right welcome to Quick show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we bring on Paul Meo who is
a culture Warrior veteran he has worked for four decades in DC the state of Utah
with the church and is really in on the nitty-gritty of the culture War including the fights that the church has
made in the past against law and policy in the US Paul has recently come out with a new book called defeated which
talks about the loss of the culture War the lessons that he's learned in several
of the battles that he's been in and the way he sees that war today I've been in correspondence with Paul and some of his
friends for the last couple of years and really enjoyed the email threads that we've been on and I love his direct
blunt point of view on several matters give yourself some time to warm up to him I think you're going to really enjoy
this entire interview now this episode is brought to you by going do travel I am the official spokesman for them the
gospel on the Nile Cruise has been sold out for all of the spring cruises in 20125 but we've opened up September
October and November so three new gospel on the Nile cruises this is a very
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trips and events and then scroll down to gospel on the Nile I'll put that link in the description box as well now let's
jump in here kind of abruptly into my conversation with Paul Meo I I am an
adult convert uh my wife Sally and I were were married at 18 years old and uh
when I was 20 years old looking for purpose in life uh a couple young men my
age knocked on on my door and uh I became a Latter-Day Saint uh my
wife joined a year later we went to the DC Temple a year and a day
later moved out to BYU two weeks later this is by this time it's 1980 that's
back when BYU took stupid people you know I mean one of them I was one of
them I'm not I'm not saying that there stupid people there right now because there's plenty of evidence that they are
there but at least academically you know I mean I was a nobody I worked in a
warehouse and so I went to BYU got a degree in public
policy and uh moved back to where we were married in Northern Virginia just
outside of DC of course you know the mecca if you want to go to
if you want to work in public policy or if you want to work for the government or whatever so I spent 10 years uh
working on Capital Hill uh in DC for two different congressmen with a small uh
with a small Gap where I lobbied for uh for an organization did you have as a as a
youth in high school did you did you have a and what I call it a political
ideology already set in or no you know but it is a great question I uh
um my high school years were were mostly uh smoking pot and playing
basketball and if if the random young lady came into my life then hey that was
good too but uh no uh but but it is interesting when excuse me when I joined
when I actually was uh in the process of getting baptized and and and searching
out religions um I knew even at 19 years old I knew
two things and this is funny how this guided me I knew two things I knew that
abortion was killing a human being and I knew that
homosexuality was um not right uh
um that was my 19-year-old mind and so
as I sought out different religions there were only three that actually believe the same thing uh Catholics
Southern Baptists and latterday Saints back when the latterday saints were actually vocal about those things
yeah well and uh it just so happens that Baptists and Catholics didn't knock on
my door so here I am you know as a latterday saying but no um now I picked
up I I picked up my interest in government um um at a small little College in Texas
right after we got married we just left Northern Virginia to kind of grow up together and uh I flunked every other
class except government and I thought
okay so anyway we headed back and went to BYU uh came back worked on Capitol
Hill and uh in in 1997 that was my last
year on Capitol Hill I and I had already created a nonprofit called projects for
America and uh it allowed me to continue a lot of the work that I was already
doing congressionally on culture War social issues uh the two guys that I
worked for probably the most conservative guys that have served in
modern Congress a guy named Bill danam and another fell named Bob Doran uh
remember Bob Doran yeah you would because he subbed in he subbed in for Rush Limba uh many times and uh um but
yeah both of them from Orange County California uh down in your your area
yeah and so anyway uh I came out of there working on this
projects for America and certain different culture War topics um and I I ended up I'm shanding
all of this but I ended up uh merging my projects for America with an
organization in Rockford Illinois the Howard Center for Family religion and
Society uh three members of of that board of the board of the Howard Center
were Latter-Day Saints H uh one was uh now president
Oaks uh another uh is a was a fine gentleman he's passed away Jack Wheatley
but at BYU there's a there's a called the Wheatley Institute right
that's him that's his family okay uh and then uh the third was was um a beautiful
woman uh Katherine K swim and uh she and I became Fast
Friends um because of different projects that she was interested that we were working on then and um it it it just
worked out that well her son had created something called Southerland Institute
yes in Salt Lake City which is a state-based think tank so so uh they
lost their president after a few years and she called me and said you need to
apply and I thought I said I don't want to raise my children in Utah you know I just uh we have six I
I just didn't want to do that she says no you need to do that so I did I wasn't
I wasn't her son's first pick for president I was the second but um uh
there's a sweet story that goes with that that that maybe some other time I can share with you but uh I ended up at
southernland uh from the year 2000 till
2014 uh separated from Southerland uh it was one of those deals
where where uh the new chairman of the board and I did not see I to ey
and um they fired me
uh so I I picked up a a national job called the leadership project for
America couple wealthy guys from Back East wanted to bring Civility and Leadership into politics and they
created a C3 C4 uh and a pack and I ran all of that for a year because it was
2015 and into 2016 and guess who was running for president in
2016 uh Donald Trump and he is anything but uh Transcendent or civil um
leadership may be um but at the time in 2016 I I don't he was a curiosity right
I mean he got the lowest when we when we ranked all of the presidential
candidates all of them Democrats include like 30 something individuals uh only Hillary got a lower
score than Donald Trump um so I did that
that happened so so the two were the very lowest score were the two nominees absolutely absolutely and and if it
would have kept going probably same thing would have happened in in
20 but um I I came
uh back to Utah uh mentally uh and politically and started my own Think
Tank um Next Generation Freedom fund and I was going to work on religious freedom
issues but I I have a friend named Stuart Reid who was a state senator in
in Utah and um he convinced me to work
on poverty issues from a conservative perspective that he thought I could
bring value there and so I did that I worked on intergenerational poverty and then after a few years that left
uh after success frankly I thought maybe I'm retired U and then a position came
open to do government relations for Western Governor's University uh a couple of friends of mine had worked
there and uh I got to work from home and
I uh I told them two things by the way Greg I said uh I want to work from home
and leave me alone I'll go do my thing and they did and uh that lasted for five
years until this September and now I am retired retired okay so so deep background in
politics you were mixing in with a lot of the you know who knows who of the
world or who's who of the world yeah especially in conservative politics your book that you came out with right so
your book here defeated y okay is an interesting title and I know this is a
play a little bit on the cover of this as a play on your last book also but uh you what who's defeated and what it
you've got the the book is about an autobiography of your own yeah history with the culture war in the in in
America yeah what what is it that is defeated um great question thank you
because uh it could be that as I say in the preface I
lost um but the culture war was lost uh by the late
90s and um the entire culture war and so
you you think of any issue in the culture War I mean we could list 30 of them right now you know that that
conservatives and progressives have fought for the last 40 something years
um we we lost every battle but the premise or the thesis that of my
book is that we lost the war before we lost all these battles we lost all these
battles because we lost the culture War uh foundation and uh and as I say in the
book those three things are we lost we lost uh defining what it means to be a
human being MH we lost the definition of true freedom
and we lost uh what um I just describe
as moral imagination meaning uh our our general
relationship to God um so so let me ask you real quick Paul on this then if
you've so you're you're you know my wife used to listen to a conservative talk
show host named uh Michael medv oh yeah and Michael
Medved would would come on and I remember hearing him and and he said he said you're you're happy cultural Warrior was kind of his thing right his
little self-title right on this so he's out what he believes at least or believed that he was fighting the
culture War yes right you're saying it was already lost um I I happen to
have similar thoughts on that as well but why
those three things right the debate over what it means to be a human being the the debate over the meaning of true
freedom and and lo how we lost our moral imagination was there anything specific
at that point in the late 90s that brought us to that point how did we get there and and and were we flirting with
it before or was there yeah how did this happen yeah because you know the the
first big uh culture War fight um well yet there's probably three
things that that compete for the first um one would have been
contraception um before abortion contraception was illegal in Most
states um School prayer and uh and then and then abortion
so um yeah I I guess I I because of how
I've framed my argument I would have to say
that that yeah along the way we lost and so there was a
cumulative loss in the war not just these battles you know it not just these
battles but we were but we were losing the battles because of we we lost these
these other issues that I describe and you for instance what does it mean to be
a human being all right if you if you haven't figured that out one way or
another uh you're well first of all you have no
voice in the culture War but if you have figured it out one way or another you're on one side or the other and so you know
in this case obviously but think of abortion and what does it mean to be a
human being uh what it means to be a human being uh
typically is comprised of three things human dignity human potential and human
happiness and um and so in the abortion fight of course you know there was a lot
of talk of when life begins and all of that but the reality is you think about
you think about abortion um um generally uh you know is is there
dignity is that is that ele is there an element of human
dignity in abortion is there an element of human potential is there an element
of human happiness now if you're Progressive you're going to answer that question three times
yes because because you're so focused on your own personal
autonomy uh you know you don't care right about about that other human being
inside you you might it might pain you uh you might feel guilty but ultimately
you've chosen personal autonomy and I'm I'm
excusing you know like we all do um you know the health of the mother and rape
and incest and you know things that everybody understands that that can
justify an abortion that aside those those few
times aside um every other time is really an exercise in choosing your personal
autonomy um and so
uh and and and so what does it mean to be a human
being and and frankly uh if you if if
you understand like I'm explaining it human dignity human potential and human
happiness in other words that you have an eye towards the broader
Humanity that you're not self-absorbed that you're not just
worried about your own uh autonomy and and the more popular term for autonomy
Greg is choice right this is my body I'll do what I want with it this is my
choice I people think people think uh and this this is a big part of my book
people think that Liberty and freedom are the same thing Liberty is just personal autonomy Liberty is like I'm
just going to choose uh to turn left instead of right you know in my car I'm
going to buy oranges instead of apples you know but but freedom is different
freedom freedom is a moral ecology and it's comprised
of individual liberty but it's also deeply um based in order that you you
can't you can't be a free Society unless you first have
order this has been a longstanding argument between
Libertarians and conservatives uh and um and this is why
I can't stand Libertarians I I mean I I I've met so many tell us what you really
think Paul yeah so many smart individuals you know and they're just
they're completely stupid when it comes to um understanding their own ideology
or seeing it that way but Liberty and freedom are two different things uh all
of the things I've just described in this in this heap of uh
verbal vomiting I'm doing right here you know uh is the culture war and and if
you believe if you believe that like like Faith precedes the miracle if you
believe that order precedes a free Society then you
are a conservative culture Warrior interesting
if you don't believe that at all then you're on the other side is it just that
progressives don't believe in an order or they believe in a different order oh they they absolutely believe in
order because you know they tell us all what to do all the time that you know we can't say this we can't say that you
can't go here you can't go there you can't associate this way if you're at work be careful what you say you'll lose
your livelihood um uh you know you know
abortion uh again just pick the issue then they'll tell you exactly what their
order is but their order is chaos it's just chaos because it's all built on
personal autonomy it's all built on this Cult of this is my body and I will do
with it what I want and and frankly philosophically as I describe in the
book there's a reason for that there 's a reason uh a philosophical reason uh
where they come to this conclusion and it has to do with the separation of of
mind and uh or spirit and body and they separate the two this is what makes it
easy for them to say this is my body I'll do what I want with it well if you're a Christian of any of any real
kind uh you understand that uh your faith is based around uh you know not
just uh the atonement of Jesus Christ but the resurrection of Jesus Christ
well what happened in the resurrection it's its body and spirit come back together again there was a
separation and now we're back together again so uh so if you're a conservative
culture Warrior you're you're not going to you're not going to buy into this uh
you know I'm trying to remember sorry Greg the name of that book in the 70s that came out my body my choice or something like
that you know some ridiculous thing that was very popular um and and and so
frankly uh we get back to what does it mean to be a human being well for a
conservative culture Warrior you know it means first and foremost uh those three things that I
mentioned human dignity potential and happiness but it also means that body
and spirit are one they are one um they're it's interesting you have
uh you know uh Michelle Fuko I don't know if you know who he is but he's a he's a philosopher of uh of
postmodernism and he died of AIDS and uh yeah died of AIDS he he's he's uh you
know very uh eccentric let's say person but he also um you know very very hard on the
left and he has a a quote that is very interesting you know in in the Book of Mormon you have you know in mosiah
there's the discussion from King Benjamin about putting off the natural man yeah which is really more about put
off the body or Master the body right from the spiritual standpoint fuko's quote and he is the
most quoted and referenced person in all of Academia in the US by the way um his quote is the
body uh or excuse me the spirit is the prison of the
body it's the exact opposite the spirit is the prison of the body I I just I
just it just made me think about that as you're as you're talking about the absolutely and yeah in the philosophical
um um pedigree I guess I'm trying to think of the right word is it's dualism
MH and uh and that idea of dualism is what FAL describes and what modern
progressives uh are expressing when they say it's my body my choice they they're
they're just separating the two things um and and that gets into so many
culture War issues you know when you believe that then uh same-sex marriage easy it's easy
to believe in if you believe that that spirit and body are two separate things
if you're if you can do anything you want with your body uh and justify
it then all promiscuity I mean that's been the whole DNA of the hard left
since the very beginning is is sexual promiscuity it's always there which goes
against the order yeah of the family and so it's interesting you brought up those three issues of uh kind of the issues of
what was first you know so you have abortion you've got uh uh contraceptives you got prayer in school those three
things fit under two categories one is religion and and the other is
family right and those seem to be oftentimes part of that order that is
always attacked right it's it's it's it's you know feminism coming in let's let's break up marriages let's push away
from marriage and abortion let's push away from family contraceptives let's push away from family let's all those
things seem to go against an order that we would say is of god um is it not worth fighting for
though uh I've I've fought for it all my career uh even after even after I knew
that the war was over um um I fought a different fight uh
essentially I fought on behalf of my church um that's what I felt like called
me back to duty if you will let me just say I if we have a minute here yeah let
me just say if somebody ask me um what book would I
recommend that that anybody who leans coner conservative should read first and
foremost besides the Book of Mormon um is a book called The Quest for
Community by a sociologist named Robert Nisbet
NB and when you were talking about religion and family what Nisbet did and
he wrote this uh he wrote this right after World World War II I think it was
50 1953 that uh this book came out so he's he's
hot off the heels of of Stalin and Hitler and as a sociologist he says do
you know why they were successful because both of them were able to kill
the intermediate layer of society between the individual and the state so
they got rid of family they got rid of religion they got rid of unions uh they
got rid of charity voluntary associations it's that inter
intermediate layer of society that actually sets our morality sets our
values so when when Hitler and Stalin got rid of those things because
individuals innately need to belong to something well there was nothing left to
belong to except the state and then all of a sudden the state sets your morality
values you wonder you wonder how otherwise regular
Germans could go to work every day and gas Jews you know and and do horrible
things and go home and bounce a baby on their knee how could you how can you put
that how can you fathom that well you can when you imagine that uh your God if
you will uh the state is telling you that it's okay to do both of those
things and uh uh and so the culture War too is largely been over defending that
intermediate layer of society against those who would get rid of
it yeah that's that's interesting I think it's uh um I to me it's always
been mostly family I mean religion comes in there sometimes but there there just seems to be
I I mean you you can look at the numbers today I mean the the the states where you have a stronger family structure two
parents in the home more kids the fertility rate is higher all lean to the right all of them yeah right and and and
as you go down you get further to the left and further left and further to the left and I'm not saying that everyone on the left is against family or anti-
family or anything like that but but the structure of supporting that order of a
family seems to coincide with more of a a a world viw that leans
to the right yeah absolutely absolutely so I
um I I could have stopped uh fighting this culture War
fight in the late 90s by the way you asked what what maybe was if there was a
moment I guess I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but you know was there a moment at which
all of a sudden it was like light bulb on we've we've lost and what I what I use in the book
is a moment and it's a decision um um and it's uh Casey
versus oh gosh Casey versus somebody 1992 abortion and it was when Justice
Anthony Kennedy wrote the majority opinion basically
reasserting the standard of roie Wade and in the Casey
decision um I haven't memorized the quote I should because I I pin everything on it um he's basically
saying that that the heart of Liberty is whatever anybody chooses to do which is
why the same Justice could write the majority opinion
in Lawrence over sodomy laws uh could write uh the majority opinion on the
same-sex marriage case and a couple others
that that fit those that fit those categories and
um he gets the heart of Liberty right it's it's whatever you
want unfortunately he doesn't get the heart of Freedom uh the heart of freedom is a
whole different thing and there's just so many people who use those two words
synonymously um and they're not synonymous um Liberty is a component
part of Freedom that moral ecology that creates Freedom so you get you get to
True Freedom among those three things I said we lost those three ideas you get
to True freedom by understanding that order precedes uh that order is the foundation
of Freedom that order and Liberty combined in Balance create a free
Society interesting yeah that's an interesting Insight um so you talking here about I
mean you were obviously very invested in the cultural War have been very invested
in the cultural War right talking about uh you're angry that you didn't do more looking back on things that you didn't
persuade people more and you're even angry at yourself for feeling this way
at at this point do you still feel that way at this point that that you didn't do enough do you look back and say well
it was always a losing cause uh should you have been involved the whole time are you glad you were
involved where where are you at now you know I uh
this is I believe this is just where the Lord put me I it's you know when I
started on Capitol Hill I started as a press secretary and I didn't have uh you
know dreams of culture war in my head I I just happened to go to work
for one of the most conservative members of Congress uh bill danam and I happened
to go to work for him in 19 87 well that's the first year that
Congress dealt with AIDS and uh my boss was the ranking minority member on the
subcommittee that dealt with the issue so all of a sudden we're I'm in the
middle of it and then we realize that that that that public policy isn't
about isn't about uh Public Health it's about the politic itics of of the gay
agenda and I mean everything that we did with Co we weren't allowed to do with
AIDS you know you couldn't uh for instance you couldn't uh contact Trace
with Co you know they might ask you who you've been who who were you around you
know where did you travel who in
1987 uh you couldn't ask that the the gay community would say we're not going
to tell you who we had sex with we're not going to get names on a list so that you people can have a a list of gays you
know what anyway it was treated politically and not as a public health
issue that's what started that's what started it all for me so I wasn't
looking for it it it as I say in the book it found me and and whether I liked
it or not I became an expert on those particular
issues um and then because because the issue of
homosexuality has been at the core of nearly every culture warb
fight um over the last 20 something 30 years um you know that's put me right in
the center of it constantly yeah which is also a family
issue it is well yeah it is you're you're
you're when you're a conservative culture Warrior you're you're trying to defend what we
call the natural family you know uh which other people would just say marriage between a man and a woman and
children and you know Leave it to Beaver World kind of thing um
but yeah I I guess I found myself maybe it was my personality Greg I I don't
know but I was always the tip of the spear you know I wasn't I wasn't the
hand saying you know let me help you up I was
I was always the tip of the spear that was pushing in a fight and um
give me an example of that what's an example exle where you were the tip of the spear
um well uh what I just said about about AIDS um our office I
mean if you you understand Congressional offices uh typically unless unless
unless the the the member the the congressional representative is very
strong personality my guy was a a strong personality but even so I wrote
everything I wrote everything that this guy said did with few
exceptions and uh and because he was in the position on that committee on that
subcommittee uh he went toe-to-toe with the chairman of that committee who
was from West Hollywood all right you can't get can think back to 198 7 and
think of of Fullerton in Orange County and think of West Hollywood you
cannot get a a a greater uh Collision of
of philosophies than that and these two these two guys uh played it out I mean
it was right out of Central Casting and yet um we realized that once we realized
that the issue wasn't going to be about public health once we realized that that
chairman Henry Waxman was was going to make it about uh gay
rights that's when we went on the
offensive against gay rights and what back then was called the gay agenda or
the homosexual movement or or whatever and so um you know you can play
defense and you can play offense we were defending the family but we were defending the family by going on the
offensive to stop in this case of the the
homosexual movement what what uh
there's so much isn't there I well there is I I I just there there what what do you think today I mean what yeah there
are many different points of view right now especially for latterday Saints as far as what is your involvement with a
cultureal war should you be involved with a cultureal war um we've got a mutual friend that has a very different
idea than what I do I listen to what he's saying but I'm like I don't know if I grasp all of this I don't know that I
agree with a this type of a stance of of not being involved at least to some
degree I yeah what where should the L A Latter-Day
Saint be in terms of of and I'll say on any position or what they're fighting
for if they should fight for anything should they in be involved with these these civil issues and and is it
important that they're involved is it uh again is it a lost cause that they're
fighting what what what should their involvement
be uh great question because that's what it looks like on the ground and so on
the ground uh I'm a father of six and a grandfather of
23 uh I would say
that a faithful latterday Saint um mother or father
ought to ought to be in control of their
family and and that includes the circumstances under which they Place
their children um you know um the provider has
to go out and work and provide um um you know both have to raise
children but I guess I'm I'm sorry to dance around
this so I'm not going to dance around this I'm just going to tell you I think faithful lday Saints ought to pull their
kids out of public school out of out of circumstances under which uh secular
society the progressives are bombarding them constantly it's almost like a after
eight hours of kids inside a public school in Utah they will come home home and you
have to deprogram them you know it's just like and and and for and so I think
parents have to seize the opportunity they have to seize control of their
lives if they're truly faithful latterday Saints they understand that
the goal the goal for that family is
exaltation and and the process of exaltation includes establishing
Zion and I get to the end of my book where I talk about this uh
much with with the same kind of passion that I'm trying to express right now um
latterday Saints good people think that you socialize children by throwing them
out into the world uh you know isn't that what isn't that what we were told to be tried and
tested and all of that but you know I just keep saying you know just like
there's one atonement there's there was one exit out of the Garden of Eden we
don't have to keep replicating that as families we don't have to keep kicking
our kids out of our homes and into the
world um we can go ahead and raise these
children uh in our environment which hopefully is is a healthy environment um
uh a an environment free of fear we
don't we're not afraid of the world if the world came after our children we
would step up and that's often what happens right when you have your kids in school and all of a sudden there's drag
queen story book hour and you're wondering you know why is my child
sitting there I mean and there's just so many other examples that are that are
that that seem uh much less dramatic
right I mean they could be in a history class and all of a sudden they could get some BS
about hisory or whatever else whatever whatever it is you know I mean it
doesn't even have to be uh it doesn't even have to be Dei it could just be
wrongheadedness about our founding fathers or or the Constitution or what
the Declaration of Independence means or why we went to war why we didn't go to
yeah I mean there just so many things that that that
um the public school system representative of the secular
world will pump into the heads of our children so I would say it with with all
cander with
with without gu take control of your
family don't lose control of your family and keep your eye on the prize and the
prize is exaltation Zion your your family is a
little practice area for Zion and your home ought to be a place where there's
peace and love and kindness and learning
and Truth uh and so there's as I say in the
book there's really only two safe places left on the face of the Earth your home
and the house of the Lord period that's it so that is an example I agree with
that completely actually but uh I do a lot of work on education uh that to me is a is is an issue of of
a proper Retreat perhaps is there anything on the offensive that that a Latter-Day Saint
should be involved with going out into pushing with issues getting involved with
organizations uh pushing for voting you know whatever else it might be is that is that a proper place to be because
there's also the thought that you know what we just want to build Zion and let the Babylon be Babylon let it let it be
on its own yeah and and I have some issues with that I'm not saying I'm right but I I have a lot of questions about that kind of black and white
separation that uh that that I hear sometimes so I call the separation
strategic disengagement and and so to to uh
address the other side of this coin that you're asking about now um you know yeah
we're sit izens of the United States of America and we need to be involved we
need to be knowledgeable about candidates for office we need to understand what we
believe and how that might be represented by a candidate uh most
Latter-Day Saints have their kids in public schools uh we need to understand
what's happening there if you're going to put your child in that environment you better put yourself in
that environment as well and and so yeah it's it's handson whether you're at home
or whether you've lend your children out to other people you need to you need to
be handson so it uh one of the one of
the difficulties with me saying the culture war is over and that it's been
over is that there's always always a fight there's always something going on
there's always some crazy nonsense like transgender stuff there's always
something nutty that all of a sudden crops up and is absolutely antithetical
to what we believe is Latter-Day Saints and and so yeah do do we get
involved um I would say because I've already said the
culture war is lost because we've we've we've lost the fight over those three
big Ideas I mentioned earlier
uh you do I I I would say there's nothing to fight for anymore
except your family except your children and that's why I talk about strategic
disengagement I I'm not saying uh become uh a society of monks and go into a cave
and separate yourself you know I'm saying be a family and and parents seize
control there's a there's a chapter or two in the book Greg where uh I talk
about how religious freedom is gone and we don't don't even know it our church doesn't even know it uh president Oaks
argues for Religious Freedom all the time and and although you haven't heard
about it lately um but at the core of losing religious
freedom is the loss of individual religious
conscience that was done in 1880 whenever the Reynolds decision was
over polygamy you know I hate to use that issue because because polygamy
plural marriage whatever you want to call it is a third rail in our church you touch it and everybody starts P oh
yes definitely so but that decision threw the baby out with the bathat
fine stop plural marriage stop polygamy but you have to hang on to
indiv idual religious conscience and the Supreme Court back then threw that baby
out with the plural marriage bathwater and that that debate has been going back
and forth for decades all the way up to now with a conservative Trump Court say
like the Hobby Lobby decision you know uh where they didn't where they didn't
want to include abort of faans in their health care plan but Obama care insisted
on it well they took it to court conservative Supreme Court landed on the
side of Hobby Lobby and then there's the cake baker and there's the florist you
know there's the there's the there's the computer programmer these individuals are fighting for individual
religious conscience do we are are we able to wake up in the morning
grg and live our faith are we able to do that sure I give I give an example real quick
1988 in Virginia we decided to homeschool our children we were
criminals in 1988 in the Commonwealth of Virginia homeschooling was
illegal was illegal unless you were like an Amish community and then there was
like a religious exemption well we claimed a religious exemption even though our church didn't have position
on it um we just said based on our faith uh we believe that parents have
the right to control the education of their children and parents have the right to Revelation well you can imagine
what the Attorney General of Virginia said to that you know what are you
talking about Revelation who are you people you're crazy if you don't put your kids back in school you know we'll
take the kids from you we fought that we thought that and we won and uh you know
that's in the book but um that's what I'm talking about you know so so if
there's if there's an issue even if you have your kids in public schools um or you place them in in the
care of anybody else besides yourself you better be handson if it was the Boy
Scouts you better have been Hands-On you know if it was uh um gymnastics for
girls you better have been Hands-On as a parent to protect that child you know so
yeah that to me is what's left of the culture War so when somebody says well
you know what we're going to have a we're going to have a uh a ballot
initiative that uh says that in the state of Utah
um nobody can transition from male to female or female to
male I would say don't do that just don't do that you might you might win
the ballot but trust me you're going to lose the culture would you would you
vote would you vote on it um yeah I'd vote on it yeah I would
vote on it because I'm a Citizen and all of a sudden there it is it's in front of
me but I would never encourage any of my political friends to introduce that kind
of so is there is there a responsibility though beyond your family at all I mean obviously that's number one but but is
there not a responsibility that says okay you you go beyond family you're worried about the community you're worried about your neighbor um can I can
I offer some type of influence or at least if not influence even just awareness
of of a knowledge of something to help them out with something you don't understand the tra look at someone like
Elon M musk right so he he he's been his life spent his lifetime on the left and
the what the trigger for him you know someone would say a red pill moment right for him was that was that his
son was saying that he was a girl yeah right now he wasn't living with him I
don't think at the time but but he was saying he was a girl and and and brought they were brought to the hospital and
the doctors told him Elon the father if you don't do this he's going to kill
himself right if you don't do this he's going to kill himself so he did it right and and and so his his son
transitioned into a girl into a girl you know air quotes and and
so I think I just think that that's tragic that is
absolutely tragic should I not have some type of a i I don't know a duty of some
sort that says look this I need to go beyond my family also with with others
and and you know I'm not really an activist but you know for my show at
least I mean what I'm really into awareness yeah right I I want information out there as much as
possible at least you see it you you can maybe make a better decision yourself is
is there no responsibility for us to to to put that out there in the culture or or to put that out there with with a
Community with with to to follow I don't know beyond I think just
our responsibility as parents I get what you're saying and uh I would say I would
say yes because just like we're missionaries in our church right we we have truth and
it's it's incumbent upon us to share truth um again um strategic
disengagement that I argue for isn't isn't uh uh living in a cave somewhere
but here's here's how I would flip the script of what you just described if we
feel and we do have a duty to share truth to share love to share kindness to
share all the virtues all Godly virtues we have a duty to to share those
as as we have them and I say this in the
book flipping the script don't wander into Babylon to do
this you're don't try to convert
Babylon invite those individuals into
your Zion environment invite them into your world you just a just a a practical
example when our children uh our oldest was probably a young woman in the church
you know 13 14 years old um and you know you hit a point where the kids are like
hey can I go sleep over at Bobby's house can I sleep over at Jane's house right
um we always said no when we the few times we did the
kids came right home because they were like that's a weird house and it we were
uncomfortable there what we what we told kind of a disgruntled oldest daughter
was you know what why don't you invite Becky to sleep over at our
house then she Becky is in our environment
she'll feel if we have virtue in our home she'll feel it she'll get it so
instead instead of sending my children out into the world as as a premature
young missionaries you know or or me uh you
know uh holding um uh what would it be Greg book
reading meetings or you know whole I don't know what what whatever we used to do you know when we had we had people
over and we would talk about issues and stuff like that you know and and that's the way we used to try to influence our
neighbors you know was to have uh I was going to say tea parties we don't have
that kind of thing in our church but you know I'm getting at sure and uh uh those
days I think are long gone I think the best way to do it is is if we're good
missionaries and we're trying to share virtue in a civil society the best way
to do it is to invite those you care about into your world don't don't step
into Babylon if they're in Babylon and you want them to be in
Zion don't walk into Babylon invite them into
Zion uh you know there's one thing and I agree with that to some degree um at
least in terms of where we're at what are you what are you struggling with there I struggle with Duty I struggle
with a responsibility I I I I I obviously have a responsibility with my own family that is first and foremost
what what I'm here for right but but it's I I struggle
with uh and I know you quote some things from
Mormon and morona and El and other things about them finishing right I'm not going to
say they are defeated but they they they they finish with things but they for the
most part Mormon is out there battling regardless of the absolute defeat and he
knew it and he knew what was happening and he's still out there leading this
apostate iniquitous murderous group of people because he influence one person I
don't know but but he's he has a duty I think he's like these are my people
that's right you know they're they're my people I I'm going to go fight for them I I there's a loyalty to some degree
regardless of of of the the Babylonian influence so to speak yeah but but if we
go through The Narrative of the Book of Mormon you know uh the largest part of the narrative is strategic
disengagement it you know uh yeah were were there opportun were there
missionary opportunities yep there were but the reality was is that uh King Ben
Nephi King Benjamin King mosiah uh Elma the se you know
they're they're still the Nephites they're still the nephite nation and
then there's a lonite nation there are brethren we love them we wish they were
with us in fact we'll send out a few people to go talk to them because we
love them we care about them but the culture the culture War if you will
was we want them to join us we're not going to sacrifice and join
them you know they have to join us and that's really what I'm getting at
here is is if we feel the duty to to
help in society uh with with issues that come
up I think there are I think there are better ways
to fulfill the to fulfill those duties
than the traditional way we've done so for the last 40 years I don't doubt that
at all I think I give one example in in um in the book where we were fighting
federal sex studies for Youth and uh and we had them we we had those killed HHS
the head of HHS guy named Lewis Sullivan he's like done I I don't want to mess
with you guys I don't want you having a million Christians block my phones you
know for days which is how we used to fight the fight on the ground but uh all
of a sudden there's this report that we thought we
killed you know we thought we killed this one report and it pops up who did that oh it
turns out the assistant secretary did that it turns out the assistant
secretary is a guy named James Mason who is a latterday saint so I have this
crazy idea brother Mason would you and your wife like to come over to our house and
have family home evening with us he said
yes we had family home evening together we had a delightful
time and he and I worked out this problem he ended up
killing the report and the studies um and later in life of course I
mean he went on to be the head of the CDC and all I mean he was a big shot right and later in life he moved to Utah
he was called to be a general Authority 70 and I was head of Southerland Institute and uh he was a donor to
Southerland Institute he would write me notes and he would just say hey you're doing great work my point is what what
happened there was something personal between people who who should have
had a a basis of faith in common from which we could
build ideas and arguments in public policy that's I think that's what's left
for us Greg I don't I I just don't think that there's any more getting up on a
soap box on a corner and shouting out what we believe
metaphorically you know I just don't think it's uh it's leading an initiative
anymore I would say I would say no more prop AIDS no more proposition AIDS we're
done it's over I I at the at the end of the book I you know I'm I
recommend that our church just talk about things that they
feel like we should address as individuals in a free Society but as far as their actions and
activities as a church they should they should only protect what's What's
um you know against existential threats uh that's the only thing they
ought to organize over I'm not saying is family an existential threat
uh um no okay it's it's it's I don't think the
family is under an existential threat unless we let it happen as parents we
need to control our family so when when like U another gentleman and I wrote a
book called The Natural family a Manifesto we laid it out I mean we tried
to make an argument the best we could why family is the fundamental unit of
society and it's the foundation of a free Society um and we talked
broadly that was in 2007 that was about 10 years too
late why did I do it why why I mean I was the one that came up with the idea
well again at that point I felt like I was defending my faith my church and I
wanted latterday Saints to have uh like a Bible for the family so that they
would know why family is the fundamental unit of society not the individual MH
not the church not the state not the corporation the family and uh you know
that they could carry it around that they could read it and of course you know nobody read it you know I nobody
reads stuff um like we think that they should mhm and
unfortunately the the squeaky will still
gets the grace and you you you see this in Trump
World right now right you you know that there's the the ones who Screech right
they uh what's that lady's name with the three names margerie Taylor Taylor green
yes you know what a and how why she is a representative I don't know but
I'm glad I don't live in that District um so there's these folks that are just
screeching all the time and everything is a problem everything is an issue uh
we see this Greg inside our church uh we see it when we go to church there's
always a busy body there's always somebody that is in somebody else's
business constantly you know and I I would tell
my wife it's like she's been a Relief Society president a few times and like don't be that Relief Society president
please you know just mind your own business love people do what the bishop
asks you to do but but don't be a busy body don't don't uh you know don't don't
say that the sky is falling the sky isn't falling you know focus on what's
most important and we're told by a prophet of God what's most important and
it's our family because the family is the is the key to exaltation and it goes
through the doors of the house of the Lord so the ordin es matter Gathering
Israel building Zion that's what matters and and we can do this most effectively
inside our own family and if we have people who are in our war they're our
neighbors uh and we sense that they're really struggling that that they really
want to bless their children and they really want to have that that solid
family we should reach out and invite them into
our home and let them feel what it's like let them see that children don't
have to fight with each other right I mean remember King Benjamin that's what he was saying you know don't let your
children fight with one another what's the matter with you quit your squabbling all these all these things so on the
ground I think that's what's real for me Grant um I thought about running for office
when I get back to Utah um depending on where we end up living
right now we think we're going to end up in Saratoga Springs but and I would I would happily Run for the state senate
there but then I also face when I look in the mirror well what does that mean
you know am am I still going to be a fighter am I going to stand up for what
you'll have a lot of people trying to draw you into that for sure absolutely and that's my opportunity in my head my
P brain that's my opportunity to welcome them into my world and and let me
influence them by bringing them to me as opposed to you know if I'm sitting in
Council somewhere I want somebody I want to say
things where others will go I want what he has I want to
experience what he just said and I think in your
podcast I think that's at the not putting words in your mouth I think that's at the core of why you do what
you do you're wanting I know you want dialogue and I know you want awareness
which is seriously needed but you're also wanting to bring
people into your world sure you know I you do cruises
right there's your world and you bring people into that world and uh and maybe
they don't know what you know so you're imparting knowledge truth
wisdom uh but but in our neighborhoods our homes become that ship
our homes become that place where I think we should reach out and just
really keep our eye on our neighbors who are sincerely struggling and wanting to
do something about it you know you can't do anything about the ones that don't want to do anything about it but if they
feel like they want to like why why what's wrong with my
children are fighting all the time you know they're they're bickering and they
they want to go here and they want to go there what is happening you know that's
the kind of family that I think uh we would invite over and talk to because
Greg one time we were that family and somebody did that for us okay
Pay It Forward I had so a couple thoughts on what you're saying here uh I kind of see
these this goes along tell me what you think of this yeah um you know one of the things that I see you know I think
about these the psychological and sociological differences say for example of of someone who has a worldview that's
on the left as compared to someone on the right and and one of those is is an arc of time and and that is that you
know a more a progressive side of things is going to see things that we start off whether you look at it just as purely
biological evolution you start off as an amoeba and then and then move on to this
progression of where we are today right and and the same thing can be said of
culture yeah and civilization right we start off as this little amoeba you know gathered around a campfire and then
we've progressed all the way to where we are today and we are always progressing and always moving forward in this Arc of
time toward becoming this new man and no woman of some future Progressive
Utopia right the other side is and I would say this is more of a religious
conservative Arc of time is that it is
dispensational and there is truth given and and the keys that are given the
authority is given and you have let's say most or or all of the package that
that has been given to you and then you move forward for a while but eventually right uh entropy ends up
coming in and the society starts to devolve and then it falls apart and and we see this is the example
that we get from The Book of Mormon from the gered ites and the Nephites right that is the primary message this is
going to fall apart yeah and and so you need a restoration a new dispensation
bring things in and that's how I would say things are when you say the culture war is lost to me that's just part of
the devolving of our civilization that is pretty much impossible to
reverse and and that doesn't mean again I I don't know about the involvement here but it's it's
impossible to Res I kind of look at this like I think that we are in a [Music]
time like Noah and not that there's a
flood but the rain has started and the rain is not going to
stop the rain will not stop and so as you
say there should be be a I think a warning voice there should be awareness
that Noah is given out to everybody but he's inviting he's inviting people to the ark
so to speak he's inviting them in and saying look come with me to the ark the flood is coming yeah the rain is not
going to stop yeah does that make sense uh yeah it does um um you know my
current calling in our w Is Gospel Doctrine teacher and uh you know we just
did uh uh ether uh 1 through six and then we just did uh Mormon 1 through six
I don't know how they do that but but in both cases uh here we have uh a people
who have been told that they have to get their act together like
Noah and uh because everything's going to fall apart uh um whether it's the the
Tower of Babel or whether it's Jerusalem everything's going to fall apart and you
need to get out of there I'm going to send you to the choicest land on
Earth and it will always be a choice land as long as you're righteous people
as you describe the civilization the jedite civilization ended up
destroyed the nephite civilization ended up
destroyed this American experiment
civilization will end up destroyed and and there's nothing that's going to
stop the rain from falling and and it sounds so pessimistic
but it's true it's no well let me just let me had the positive side I think it's positive there was an ark right M I
mean you know there was uh for the nephite civilization there were the Gentiles us
this is our responsibility to take the gospel The Book of
Mormon to the house of Jacob to the
lamanites that's the Gentile responsibility you know so there's an
arc a RK that that's sitting there all the
time just waiting inviting people to come
aboard that's what I'm getting at is it's not to
me to me the rain is not
pessimism to me losing the culture war is is not pessimism was I angry I I say
I was angry about the whole thing yeah I wish I could have done more I wish I
could have hit harder and again I don't even know what that would look like CU I hit hard you know I I say one one
Progressive opponent of mine on Capitol Hill uh after we after we and the
minority killed a few things he came to him and he's like you know I get that
you guys want what you want Paul why do you have to Scorch Earth everything you know well because I don't
want you to grow your nonsense anymore I want to salt that field right so I want
I've always been the fighter I've always been the tip of the spear so I think it
is a transformative voice that I'm sharing
where I see we've
lost I know why we lost I know how it happened I was there in the middle of it
for 40 years in the middle of it
and and yet there's hope I have hope you
know My Hope Is My Family My Hope Is My Generation s I'm hoping that my children
in their families are going to be the kind of families that will invite people into
their world and into their Arc and say
yes I know it's pouring outside come in here where it's dry and it's
safe and you're going to you're going to survive you're going
to survive but you have to come inside you have to walk through the doors of
the house of the Lord you have to enter the the Covenant of baptism you have to
take the sacrament you have to do the ordinances and at the
center of everything we are as latterday Saints is the concept of
exaltation and that is a family project that's not an individual
thing that's a family thing there's a reason why you have the new and Everlasting Covenant of marriage there's
a reason why we fought for it as a as an ideal in in civil society that marriage
ought to be between a man and a woman why would we do that Greg why would we go out and and do proposition a why did
we fight in Hawaii and Vermont and Cali California and mass why do we do all
this kind of stuff well I believe the seed of it is the doctrine that we
understand about the new and Everlasting Covenant and we don't want the rain to
pour so heavy on everybody that they have no hope that
they can't find the ark they can't see it because Society mixing met
because Society now is so corrupt that that you only see corrupt you don't you
don't see a safe haven you don't see uh the
house of the Lord anymore you just see you just see a corrupt World in society
I think that's really why the Brethren were involved in the
erra uh and in all the gay right stuff and but especially same-sex marriage I
think that's what motivated them I don't think they were trying to be political uh I think they were trying to
to buoy up the I the new and Everlasting Covenant I think they were trying to
create an environment socially societally that would lend itself to
have a uh an investigator go yes I want
my family to be be together forever and how do we do
that so you've got the church and you've got Babylon what about Babylon entering the church oh yeah what what about the
culture within the church it's horrible and and what do we do about
that right again I go back to not being an activist but being awareness putting awareness out there that's probably my
major focus is is putting awareness out there to the church church members yeah
what what what do we do with that I mean now we're not talking about going outside of it we're talking about within
our own church so this is something that affects you when you go to your ward right what do you hear at the pulpit
what do you hearing in in your granddaughter's young women's lesson yeah uh what what about in the church
yeah no I go into priesthood all the time and I'm thinking my gosh that was what an idiot what
oh that is you know I liked it better when high priests were separated from Elders I you know I it's just there's
something about young people who think they know everything and they know nothing and yet they talk and talk and
it's like oh my gosh just let me go home please but I don't think there's
anything we can do about that here's what I think can happen
and should happen and that I recommend in the
book there's a chapter in my book titled the handshake between the church and
Babylon and that is tax exempt
status that's the handshake when when we think about
forget about the financial side tax exemption right just forget about it
forget about what the church might save in money and what we might save when we file our taxes right let's just forget
about that let's just talk about the reality of what that handshake
means that handshake means that a large
part of our church the Lord's Church
is being overseen and dictated by
Babylon there's certain things that the church can't say there's certain things
that the church I mean the church as an institution not us as members but the
church is an institution they can't do um this is why every election cycle
you get the letter over the pulpit that you know we don't care who it is what however that's worded right um we're
nonpartisan we elect who you want to elect and of course then the progressiv use that to say see they they believe in
us you know well it's that's what I'm getting at so I think and I recommend
that the church ought to start working right now to get rid of the tax exemption the example that I use in the
book is well the the the um the issue is that that handshake
between the church and Babylon through tax exemption affects us latterday Saints
individually uh and the example I use is what was called the Utah compromise in
2015 Y where our church in Utah went to
the state capital and uh agreed to sign
off on uh gay rights spearheaded by President Oaks uh spearheaded by President Oaks
right I think there's there's a couple other perpetrators in there
um but yeah I mean and and all of that I believe was this effort to
protect um two things uh the timing of it uh
happen happened before the same-sex marriage decision that came later that
year uh but I think the timing of it also was to influence that decision but
it was but it was also to protect tax exemption you know to say look we're
cool we don't hate anybody we love everybody uh we deserve the tax exempt
status that we get but what was the fact the effect of the Utah compromise was
that our church was able to legally discriminate
against gays our church as an institution but we
as latterday Saints in terms of like ordinances and Temple marriage and other subsidiaries and what I'm talking that
they were exempt from the Law whatever whatever the law covered they were exempt from it M so
and and employment and housing under freedom of religion yeah so in other words you yes that was in the name of
freedom of religion uh but the reality is is that the effect was that the
institution was allowed to legally discriminate against gays you weren't
going to see gays openly I know that they exist on Temple Square but not
openly and um and that's because of the church's
exemption but we as members were then stuck with the burden
of the compromise the church could legally discriminate but but a Latter-Day Saint
who owned a um um an apartment complex
couldn't a Latter-Day Saint that ran a business couldn't
and I remember I I remember I oh gosh this was so vivid because it was kind of
funny I remember that the church lobbyist at the time um Bill
Evans he just passed earlier uh this year I love the guy dear
friend but he came to visit me um and we called them the home teachers
CU they always came in twos but he came to visit me and this time he didn't have
his fellow lobbyist he had Alexander duchu with him and Alexander duchu is
now a general Authority 70 and he's legal counsel for the church at the time
he was an attorney for curtain makoni which if you've ever seen the Tom Cruz
movie The Firm um you know it's R-rated so maybe many of your listeners haven't but um
there's always a mafia Law Firm well well curtain mcon is the church's Mafia
Law Firm interesting that's that's who you know that's their stable of attorneys that they go to to defend the
church and Alexander duchu was a partner at Curt makoni and uh they came the two of them
came into my office and I think they I thought that they were wanting me to um
join the cause for the Utah compromise to come and and I said no and and I turned to bill
because he's a friend um and he was you know he was a
very pleasant looking fellow but he was kind of a funnyl looking fellow too and I said and I looked at Alexander duchu I
looked at bill and I said okay imagine Bill comes to work on Temple Square in a
dress with lipstick and fake
eyelashes what do you do well we don't let him do that well why
don't you let him do that well because that's that's against
what we believe you know that just is against what we believe so we would
exempt our church the institution under employment human laws from that kind of
experience that just wouldn't be allowed but the
members who run a business wouldn't be able to do anything about it you know if
you had a person who is uh at the cash register and he's been there for uh five
years and say it's Starbucks and they're always you know you own a Starbucks I
don't know why latterday Saint wood but say we own a Starbucks right and you come in for coffee and and you see
me for five years giving you your coffee and it's like hey Phil how you doing and
then one day I C you come in Phil comes in and I'm in a dress and a hat and
makeup and in
Utah nothing nothing could be done about that you just let the guy dress like
that you know because the church because the church Exempted themselves but put
us as members in a position where we could not exercise our rights of
individual conscience the as members in Utah as
members in Utah yeah and that's the example that I use in the book between the handshake between the church and
Babylon if we got rid of the if we got rid of tax exemptions
uh then the church as an institution could actually help us it wouldn't have
to compromise in our day-to-day lives they could actually weigh in and and
help us inside our families you know they could okay here's a question though real quick are you saying they're
not I'm saying they're not okay yeah I'm saying they're not I'm saying we are
well there certainly there certainly I mean without question and this is you know I I I try to focus as much as I can
on thing what is right what is yeah and what is right now is that there is much
less of a a uh boy I hate to even say
this um oh say you you bring up something in your in your book about current events and a took class that you
took at BYU yes uh the living prophets and some I can't remember what it was but but you you say that back then they
to have a section on current events correct and what they would do is they would bring in the doctrine of the
church yeah and and and use it it's what I do in my podcast right and they would
talk about current events along with that Doctrine they took that section out they don't do that anymore and so we
don't hear this from the pulpit about well this is what's happening in society I'm going to warn you about this right
you'll get a message that's very honestly it's you know it's wonderful
but if you don't know what you're listening for you're not going to hear it correct right and and
so you know is that because of the tax exempt status that they're worried about yeah yes I believe and and and you
know so so why was it allowed before and not now I think it's what you described
there's an evolution there's a there's a progressive thing happening where in 19
let's see I was there in 1980 in 1980 it was okay for the church to include a
section on current events and and tell you why the church isn't part of the
John bur Society or to tell you why communism is a bad thing and not the
United order you know I mean there were there were they could do that yeah which
is really great instruction it is it's beautiful I still have my copy I I I
still have it I preserved it and but today Society is so
Progressive that the church is basically forced to
not talk about this stuff and so what you get it say at BYU
what you get at BYU then is this idea that anything is okay because there's no
more Church voice about current events
the default is well then everything must be okay you know it doesn't matter that
that uh that I have uh students for same-sex marriage uh that's okay doesn't
matter that I have students for evolution uh you know students for
whatever crazy Progressive thing is out there um that it's all
okay because there's no there's no instruction
anymore and I guess I guess what I'm getting at too when I say that the
church ought to the church ought to stick to defending
existential threats from existential threats the tax exempt status is going
to turn into an existential threat to the institution I'm saying it's already
an existential threat to us through the church because we we can't get the
support I never when we homeschooled and we were criminals in Virginia I didn't
go to my church I didn't go to my bishop and say hey uh will you uh who's the
best lawyer in the ward uh will you come defend me you know no I didn't do that
we just did it ourselves you know um think of it today it's still it's
that way you're not going to go and say hey bishop um you know this class at the
local elementary school is horrible can you speak up during sacrament meeting
and no you're not going to speak up during sacrament meeting you know I
think this is well I know this is why I'm saying
that all of all of my experience of 40 years is now boiling down
into into um into what I was going to say sediment
but that sounds bad you know but um what's left after you boil everything
away and what's left is the family what's left is you and me
as fathers and grandfathers protecting and
defending our faith within the family
structure and hopefully if we're
successful that experience in our family will
resonate out people will see it just like just like I knew when the
missionaries knocked on my door and I challenged them I read
anti-mormon books I laid into them they totally helped me see truth and I
accepted it uh when a when a ward
member I I taught I taught their oldest kid um 14-year-old girl
in Sunday school she always showed up with her scriptures she wasn't yapping she wasn't
chewing gum she wasn't trying to sit on the window sill she wasn't trying to
turn her chair around and do whatever she sat there and and she also knew the
answers to questions and I thought I got to who are these parents
of this child and then I find out they have nine more
like this and it's like well what in the heck and the guy that's not a surprise
we we invited them over and honestly uh
I said you got to tell me at the heart of this I get that we
we're all individuals and we have personalities and such all our children do they all have their weaknesses and
shortcomings and strengths what's at the heart of your
family and after he explained the family is at the heart of his family he said we
homeschool our kids he goes I even I even hate to tell you because you're
going to hate me for it you're going to hate me
forever because I'm I'm telling you that part of the secret is to get your
children away from that influence that's out there and
bring them home nobody's asking anybody in homeschooling to be a genius we
didn't homeschool our kids Greg for academic purposes we homeschooled our
children to be good people to be good people who could who could identify
truth when they heard it there was probably a lot of BS that came out of my
mouth as a father at times um but it was your BS they what's my BS
you know it's probably it was your BS in other words it's coming from you right it's it's you're the father you're a
parent giving instruction I'm overreacting about something right the littlest thing I my kids will tell you
dad I remember when you said uh uh if I if I drank a Coke I may as well uh drink
a bottle of whiskey you know uh that kind of thing you know they they
know they know when when we talk stupid um they get it um but anyway
uh it's interesting you know because I I've got a friend uh um I don't know you
know who Bruce Porter is but he he goes over kind of what we're going through right now in the church yeah and that is
he says look you know there's Eternal laws at the top and and and his focus on this is ex ation yeah and and the
Eternal law above all other laws is no one clean thing can enter into the kingdom of God right and all of the
Gospel including the atonement everything is designed to overcome that
problem right and it's all done out of love and so you have that at the very top which we seem to get less and less
of by the way certainly at the lower levels of of the church I don't know when the last time
was that you heard from someone else about exaltation but it doesn't happen nearly as often it did before you know
that just in the temple for me it's just in the temple yeah exact exactly and so
and then from there you come down and you've got things like Commandments and or or rather Doctrine from below that
and then you've got Commandments and then you've got principles and he says we are right now
in a state within church membership where we are focused on
principles right it it's it's the bumper sticker stuff yep right and so we've kind of come down to that level because
we're not getting at times that instruction for whatever reason you know
and and you're you're you're giving a reason here but it's it's uh it's like
it's like I don't know I mean you know my wife says she's starving for this stuff
sometimes right she's starving for it because you know where is it I want the meat right yeah and you know what and
ultimately um when Zion happens um you know I I'm sure I'll be
long gone but when Zion happens your wife will be in a community of
people where meat is served every day and and she she'll be
full and she'll be happy and and you know and
that's that is that's not just an ideal Greg and I think this is where the rubber meets the road for me and why
um why I will say um why why I'll argue
with Latter-Day Saints who who believe and they believe firmly about this many
of them that you socialize your children by sending them out in the
world okay I'm telling you you know that's that's that's Satan's way that's
that's his way of of of tricking us you know like yes don't you know that you'll
have knowledge uh you know that you'll that you'll uh be like the gods you know
if you if you go know everything that there is to know out there you got to get out no the way you socialize is you
you as parents socialize them I have met so many weird
homeschool families in my life um why are they weird why are the
kids weird because the parents are weird that's why the parents are weird so you
know it's not homeschooling that makes you weird and and it's it's it's the
parents who make you weird and it's your it's the parents who also can set a Zion
likee environment and again it's not perfect you know you miss back in the
day you miss family home evenings you miss a prayer family prayer you something happens kids yell at each
other doesn't matter when it comes down to it you're going to have you're going to have
more successful days than bad days when
parents seize the r right to be a parent and
they seize the right of control over their children not the state but the
parent and when they seize the right now that is a challenge of individual
religious conscience um and that's
that's president Oak thinks and Elder duchu think that that they're still
religious Freedom out there and the only reason that they can think that is that
handshake with Babylon Babylon allows it to happen and
I'll tell you what as soon as the church gets rid of their tax exempt status yeah
then they'll they'll understand um what it
means what Zion means they'll understand what it means to control
individual religious conscience they'll they'll they'll get it finally uh when they're when they're
free of that shackle and it is a shackle it it it's it it binds the church from
not being able to do certain things not being able to say certain things uh not having the current events
section in the back of the religion class manual you know uh because we're
not going to in we're not going to invite that kind of controversy into our lives right we're not gonna we're not
going to mix it up with Babylon we can't afford to I'm going to bring this FAL
Circle and end with this um you made a statement in the book that's interesting to me and I'd like you to expound on
this you're talking about what sets you apart from some of the other people that you worked with in
politics and you said I quote I have the ability to internalize the beauty and
heartbreak of The Human Experience why does that matter and why
would that set you apart um can you read the other can you read the full there's that's just part
of a thought you say what sets me apart from all of the others I am not an
ideologue I am an honest truth Seeker money power position and seeking
retribution Through The Spoils of victory are not characteristic of my work mostly what sets me apart are
earned opinions terrifying Candor and the ability to internalize the beauty
and heartbreak of the human experience all of these qualities vulnerabilities
and Lessons Learned have made me a trusted adviser leader and honest narrator of the modern American culture
War but honing in on that again the the part that really interests me there is is is looking at internalizing the
beauty and heartbreak of The Human Experience in all of that what does that
do for you uh it means that when I
am defending the natural family by opposing gay
rights I actually see people I don't see an
enemy um it means it means that as a
conservative and I believe an authentic conservative that
um that that the idea of Utah
addressing immigration um a
conservative can support comprehensive immigration
reforms as opposed to uh enforcement only
um because I see people um and you know I caught a lot of
hell um when I was running southernland and I
I I came out in support of back in
2010 um after Arizona just passed a law in fact the the Senate President was a
state president in our church um can't think Pierce was his name Russell
Pierce he might have represented your District down there I don't know Prett possible yeah but um you know he came
out with this uh Bill Arizona's enforcement only Bill basically saying
the State of Arizona is not going to permit um undocumented
immigrants in its state and uh it'll pull over if I mean
if you look Hispanic you can get pulled over and and get asked for your
papers and you know and I knew in my heart that that was that's
inhumane um and this is what I share in the book when I went and talked to a
senior church official and I was we were talking about something else and as I
was leaving I I say it in the book I had my hand on the door knob to leave and I
turned around to that leader and I said what's the church's position on
immigration and this was in 2009 I
believe and he said I don't think we have one but I
do and that's when that's when he taught me a lesson
and uh uh he said uh did you drive to work today I said yeah he goes did you
go over the speed limit I said of course and he said did you feel like you
had to confess your sins to your Bishop I said no he goes why not he goes
because that's a man-made arbitrary law you know a speed limit law you know it
it's not even it's not even real in my mind mind um safety is real that's in my
mind safety is real but speed has you know three miles five miles 10
miles over who cares and uh and that's when he taught me in one of my chapters
is called malum prohibitum and and there's two Latin terms that this General Authority
lawyer the biggest lawyer among the general authorities
said uh yeah there's there's malam protim and malam and say malam and say
means that it's that what you just did was bad in and of itself it's immoral
it's a sin and then there's Mal andrate in which you just man-made laws he goes
That's how I see immigration these are just man-made arbitrary laws that the government sets
for who can go and who can who can come in and that's that's what got me
thinking and then back to your point and the quote that you just read
um it's Humanity you see the humanity in people
you know you see it you see it in yourself hopefully you look in the mirror and you
can be honest with yourself uh you can look at your spouse you can look at your children the people you love and you're
going to be honest but you're always going to see the humanity the
person and as a conservative culture
Warrior probably when I was younger and starting I
objectified my opponents as enemies the more I got into it and the
more I controlled and dictated my own career um the more I was able to um stop
objectifying people and stop seeing them as an enemy
I I wrote In the book that there was a moment Greg where after prope the the
gay community some of them vandalized the
temples in California and they also released uh the donor list uh to prop
eight uh in support of prop eight and a lot of people lost their jobs yeah I
know because they did that and it happened at a time when I had arranged a
debate at the University of Utah um Southerland Institute basically
versus equality Utah which is the gay group in in Utah and um and I say that that was a
moment where I lost my Civility and um I hit him hard I I
punched down hard on them one of them was in tears the others couldn't believe
what I was saying you know and and I was staring them right in the face while I was saying all of it I just was
so they were my enemy and it's funny because a Tribune
reporter who's now a spokesperson by the way for the University of Utah Rebecca Walsh she was a reporter for the
Tribune and She interviewed me after the debate and she said that just seemed
weird why would you be magnanimous and reach out to this group and create this
debate to have a civil dialogue and then you absolutely decimate them and
uh and I I explained what I felt at the time interestingly a state senator who
was on the other side of that debate um Scott uh uh sorry Scott
somebody um uh a gay man state senator uh Rebecca Walsh went and
interviewed him about it and without talking to me he said he goes I think it
had to do he was Paul was fine before prop a and then all of a sudden after
prop a he got angry and I think that was a result of that you know so the quote
that you read I think is my is how I grown and and had the
ability to to see people as people to actually
be Christlike that's foreign to me and I want everybody to know by the way
that uh I am not a self-righteous dude I I'm probably going to be the last person
in line when my family goes to heaven and when my family gets
exalted uh they'll look back and they'll Wonder where's Dad you know uh so
I'm I I'm not I I'm not uh when I'm recommending all of these things and
when I'm sharing all of my life's experiences but when I when I have all
of these experiences to share and I think every chapter is a learning experience for somebody a faithful
latterday saying hopefully um you know I'm not setting myself up as some example or anything
even when I talk about when we homeschooled uh I'm not saying that you
know I'm superior in any way shape or form I'm not and if you read my previous
book titled unworthy you would know that I don't think highly of myself in any way shape
or form um anyway I really feel like I can see people as people
now that's what that meant yeah appreciate that Paul and and it's been fascinating talking to you taking a deep
dive into all of these things uh I want to remind everybody about this book right defeated by Paul Mero it's uh a
great read I I I reading through it I just I love the way you give a personal tone to it because it's just like saying
hey this is my life these are the lessons that I've learned and people ought to check it out so I'll put that link in the description box so that
everybody can grab a copy of that Paul thanks so much for your time excuse me and we'll uh we'll get you back on the
program sometime you know what thanks so much CG I really appreciate it and uh I
really appreciate everything you're doing you're putting yourself out there and uh and that's important so thank you
appreciate it
