My Hope Is that we'll see like a great spreading of the Gospel one more time before Christ returns do you feel that
there needs to be a preaching of the Gospel to all parts of the world before
it
[Music] happens so in this episode I have a
discussion with Evangelical pastors Jeff Mulla and Nate Fox about the second
coming of Jesus Christ this becomes a very interesting discussion to get their perspective as compared to a latterday
saint perspective are things going to get worse before they get better do they need to get better before they get worse
do we bring in the second coming of Jesus Christ these are all points we discuss in this episode this episode is
brought to you by go and do travel I'm the official spokesman for go Ando travel and I want to tell you about our
journey of wisdom Cruise next September that's September 2 we hit three
different continents we go to Greece the Isle of Patmos Athens Turkey Istanbul
and Ephesus Egypt Cairo and Memphis three different continents and we
discussed the wisdom of the Gospel in contrast to the philosophies of men these are places where Paul taught these
are places where John walked where Abraham Joseph of Egypt and Moses lived
journey of wisdom Cruise go to Quick media.com up at the top top go to trips and events and scroll down to journey of
wisdom here we go all right welcome to Quick show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we are
bringing back Pastor Jeff Maka and my friend Pastor Nate Fox welcome guys yeah
great to be here all right so I want to talk about the state of Christianity where we're at uh I follow this quite a
bit I keep tabs I've Got Friends at the SBC I've Got Friends in uh the Methodist I've Got Friends uh in the cot of the
bishop of Canterbury in the in England and and try and get a little bit of a gauge of kind of what's happening out
there with Christi Christianity as a whole where do you see things right now
we see an arc of time where we're looking for a second coming of Jesus Christ are we going into a place where
there are going to be fewer and fewer they're going to be ready for that or is there going to be more and more growth
before we get there Nate yeah I mean that's a great question I think uh when
I think about this I think there's a you know there's a lot of opportunity uh to go in either direction as we we kind of
allow our minds to go okay we see the falling away of of more and more
Christians or we we go the opposite way and we were like hey maybe maybe there's
a room for a kind of a last great Revival within Christianity um and so to
nail it down for me uh would be would be hard because I could see it going in
either direction um I'm hoping and rooting for a last great Revival um and
and maybe there's a third option maybe we're not even close you know I I think
there's a lot of generations that thought man the return of Christ is is going to happen for sure I mean yeah of
course I mean all the world wars you're like this is this is beyond what we can
handle like Jesus come quickly um you know what would have what would it have
been like to be a part of that Generation Um and then and then you throw in the other curveball which is
like we get very American when we start to think about well if it's bad here in America then Jesus will come back and
that is so far outside of at least a Biblical worldview that it's all about
America like this is a there is a lot going on with Christians as far as like
persecution and and just uh the trials that Christians are going through in
Africa in the Middle East in Asia uh India like you you start to hear stories
and like um you know check out a website like voice of the Martyr um you you
start to realize man they are walking through what sounds like the Great
Tribulation uh according to a lot of Christians and and yet here in America
we're we're doing okay you know we get upset when we get the wrong candidate in office you know and like we're like hey
things are look looking a little dicey Jesus needs to come back second comings next week yeah so I I know that I don't
have a like a hardcore opinion on this but my My Hope Is that we'll see this la
like a like a great spreading of the Gospel uh one more time before Christ
returns and then and then when when life gets really hard I'm kind of like hey I wouldn't mind you coming back so do you
feel that there needs to be a preaching of the Gospel to all parts of the world
before it happens yeah I I think that a a strong
biblical point of view states that that's that was Jesus's his final words
um that his disciples would go Judea Samaria the uttermost parts of the world
the ends of the Earth and to um teach them and teach them how to obey and to
be baptized so I I think that that that's at the heart that's of the mission of God and there are a lot of
Evangelical denominations that will even frame Christ's second return in that way the whole idea of maratha the whole idea
of come quickly Jesus is tied to a personal stewardship and when I say
personal I mean as the church the body of Christ to spread the gospel and um I
don't know if I fully entirely Embrace every aspect of this approach or this posture but there's almost this sense of
once we can spread the gospel to the ends of the Earth we can maybe even
expedite the process again I'm not saying I fully Embrace that but there are some in the broader Evangelical or
Protestant world that take that position because um we serve a God who desires
that no man should perish but that all would come to repentance I think this is something that is talked about in uh
Peter's Epistles and in Timothy um so I think that
um there's so many different ways that we can get caught up and what's going on
because the way I see it there's there's like all these different these arcs going on you have the the The Meta
Narrative of existence which is what God started when he said let there be all
the way to when he returns the Alpha and the Omega which is that larger Arc which is kind of what you're talking about
where are we approaching the end but within that you have also cycles and and the way we would contextualize that in
the Evangelical world is we have cycles that it is this war of power you know we see it initially with Satan and the
heavenlies where there there is a a um recoiling or even a a revolt against
ultimate power and you see that cycle repeat over and over again through history so what I see what's taking
place in our culture in our world right now is we're going through another cycle what has been a main stay of power over
the past 100 years or so well there's been a a strong push toward conservative
Christianity um coming out of the second World War especially in America and now
that we're moving into a cycle where people are revolting against what that was the the power Paradigm for a while
into a counterculture of progressivism and relative in relativism in truth and
some of these other things so what we're trying to do is we're in one of these Cycles trying to figure out is this just another cycle or are we actually getting
to the end of The Meta narrative here the last cycle the last cycle or the the overall Arc and it's hard to say I do
think think that from our standpoint we would say to your initial question in the meantime we must be ready because
Christ's return is imminent he can come at any time yep but secondarily in the meantime we have a responsibility to
proclaim the hope of Christ to anyone and everyone who will listen and there there is a tension in
that um because if you look at the the Evangelical world you know there is a
lot of effort given to the missionary movement not just in hey we're going to
go into all the world and preach go but we're going to translate the Bible in every single language like we've got
Ministries like wickliff Bible translators that are going into Villages that nobody's ever been into before and
they're they're translating into a native tongue that nobody's ever known before and giving them actually a written language alongside of their
their speaking language and and so you've got those kind of efforts to
hasten the the command or the the commission of Jesus to go into all the
world and preach the gospel to every tribe and tongue and then you've also got you know the the language of
Revelation in the Bible that talks about every tribe and tongue you know and so
there is that effort and yet at the same time there's like the imminency of his
return it's like it could be any time well thief in the night yeah right it's like well wait when are we actually
supposed to expect that how could you expect a thief in the night well to that point right you can't you can't plan for that yeah and that's I think that's
Christ's point is that it's not for any of us to know however one thing that we
do know without I mean nobody can deny this that we live in a broken and Fallen World and when that presents itself as
he talks about in Matthew sometimes it's in nature earthquakes and storms and all that other stuff sometimes it's in
geopolitical Strife with wars and rumors of wars all of that is an indication that we live in a lost and broken and
dying world he has the final say in that so when we feel the pain of the lost and
broken world we should be sober minded that he is the final solution and that
he will bring that final solution uh imminently and that's why we must be ready so rather than trying to do the
mathematics which is a big problem in the Evangelical World um and it got really bad even in the 20th wait a
minute where are the mathematics coming from people saying I figured it out you numerology like I know the date that
he's returning we've gotten to the point now we're like knock it off yeah you don't know I mean Jesus flat out says
nobody knows um so you know we we try less to mathematically figure it out and
more existentially acknowledge this is a broken and lost existence Christ is the only answer he
will return I need to be ready is that return because because you're talking
about hastening is the return coming because there is a hastening by individuals here and therefore you're
almost bringing the the Savior back or is he coming when it's just getting so bad
that he has to come there's just there's so many this is kind of like Insider Evangelical culture talk I mean I kind
of articulated how some people how some denominations even will present that how how have you understood that yeah I
think there's a lot of we we just actually taught through this at the church briefly covered this idea um
there's there's a lot of different interpretations when it comes to end times there are people who really feel
that that Jesus is is going to return as things get better and better and better
and um and that's probably not the majority of the Evangelical position um
the the I would say the majority of evangelicals are probably um still kind
of working off this this numbers game that Jeff was referring to that took
took a real like upward you know Trend I think probably in the 70s and 80s when
the the Jesus is returning Left Behind series kind of came out um and and so
that's kind of more like okay there's going to be trials and tribulation and when things are at its worst then
there's going to be this thing that the evangelicals um that a lot of people you know talk about today where there's
going to be a Rapture of the church and then there's going to be seven years of a of a tribulation which comes from uh
Daniel chapter 9 is there somewhere in Daniel and um and so you know that's
where the numbers like there's a there's a missing 7-year period within Daniel's 70 and there's 69 weeks that he
prophesies and so they're saying well that that last week will la that last year or seven years will be the
tribulation yeah and so and then there's a lot of lot of speculation that we got you got uh pre-trib Rapture so Jesus
meets his church in the air prior to the tribulation cuz that is not meant for for God's people to go through and then
you've got midrib I always like the pre-trib people are the people who are like I can't handle was the first one
pre- pre pre-trib yeah pre-trip Rapture pre-trib Rapture and then midrib there's
midrib which is people can handle little pain pain and then the post trib is like it all comes kind of comes together at
the same time like Jesus is coming to to uh basically uh judge judge the Earth
okay and at that same time the church is taken up with him and and and all of
that is centered around what we would call secondary um doctrinal teachings
secondary theological schools of thought where there's a lot of speculation
there's a lot of we might need to agree to disagree some people will really passionately lean into those things but
they don't really on a fundamental level um it doesn't really touch there it's more of H how are we anticipating how do
we understand the anticipation of Christ's return I think that's really important because it's in the same thing you know with latterday Saints what I'll
see is people almost want things to get worse yeah some people right they're like okay here it comes you know that
Christ is coming so there's almost this yeah it's get it's coming you know I
want things to get bad I want people to suffer because then it's going to happen right it's just kind of weird me do you
do you feel like there's a lot of like um preparation around that too like like like physical preparation regarding end
time stuff in the in the LDS worldview there used to be a lot more okay yeah because you used to have from the general conference from the pulpit I
mean they talk about getting your food supply you probably never heard this all I know is that there are a lot of latterday saying uh either Cold Storage
in all houses or Doomsday Preppers yeah so I didn't know that there was a specific origin to yeah there was actually they got up to three years like
okay get three years of food storage um and some people still have that you know
they've changed it out and they' kept it they haven't got they haven't talked about that in a long time maybe 20 years
but uh interesting because that almost parallels when the evangelicals were kind of last days fixated oh is that
right yeah yeah so there's still there's still you know those that are they call them preppers you know they're Preppers
and and and I actually have some sympathy there to some degree with some of them and and that you know there a
lot of them are going to want to be well we need to get off the grid and we need to uh be prepared for the worst possible
things we're going to have our food storage we've got our water we've got the latterday Saints have typically
up until the last couple of decades really been in that space of being ready
for not not necessarily the second coming but uh you problems right uh
internet goes down and can't come back up the water supply is poisoned or
whatever it might be right so that you've got there's a lot of there's still a lot of focus on
self-reliance and that would be kind of an out outgrowth of of that self-reliance idea yeah interesting yeah
and it's it's so difficult uh from within within a context to properly
discern those things sometimes especially when you you have so many people that can be really passionate around those ideas because sometimes we
conflate passion with Doctrine or truth or something like that um so that's why
I have found myself and a lot of the people that I run with uh I think Nate included who we try to do our best to
take a few steps back and be okay but what do we know what do we know that we know for me there's four things that we
know the Bible very very clearly teaches about the last days one Jesus is
returning MH it's very clearly taught in the Bible two there is a resurrection I
mean clear as day taught three there is a judgment and four there is a new heavens and a new Earth we can't we
can't disagree about those four things because they're clearly articulated we would all agree with that now as to a tribulation even a millennial Reign or a
Rapture or is it going to get worse before it gets better is it going to get better before Christ returns all of that
we have to leave in that space of we're going to have to agree to disagree but right now how do we Steward what we know
where I rally around is well it's always going to come back to the gospel so regardless of trying to um you know like
a good quarterback time the reception with you know with the wide receiver be
like I need to know the play the play right now is to share the love and the
hope of Christ to as many people as I possibly can while I'm still here yeah that makes sense uh so where are we at
with Christianity right now I mean I I what and I bring this up because I follow a lot of
uh do you guys follow is it Ryan Burge trying to think of his name but he's a
statistician and he he goes through all of these uh I think he's Catholic but he
goes through all of these uh these statistics on Christianity as a whole okay and and you've got the family
shrinking you know infertility is a major major problem in the west yeah um
the fertility rate you've got family shrinking you've got more of the nuns as
they call them right those that are no longer uh associated with a religion yeah and are not attending you know a a
a service sure um the US especially is following right along where Europe has been over you
know the last 10 20 years um you've got issues with a number of the denominations and you
know the Church of England you've got problems with the methodists you've got problems are these schisms where things are breaking up um where we at where
where and where do we go from here because you've talked about how we've been in a position of more or less a
well you call it power a position a power position of maybe growth and strength are we still in that
phase I think it goes back to what he was saying about we're trying to discern at what you know at what point in the
cycle we might be um and if we're in the last cycle uh I I do believe that um you
know the state of Christianity Today is is is
probably most impacted by two factors one one is um the level of
deception that is able to to kind of like penetrate the the
society's like worldview like the worldview today is far different than
the 50s and 60s and the level of of deception that exists today in what we
would call moral issues what you guys would call moral issues where we would agree on a lot of things um is far
greater than than we've seen in recent times now that doesn't mean it's greater than what it's been in the world in the
past I mean we look back to the Roman Empire very decadent Empire you look back to obviously the flood uh things
were pretty bad to do you know to to get to that point where God's going to judge
the world in that manner but like you start to to look at where where is Christianity at today well there is
there is a lot of deception um and then secondarily and I think these are these two things exist in tension um there
there's a lot of comfort and so when you have a lot of deception and a lot of comfort and and
and and those things are are not handled well um it ends up leading towards a
decline in how many people are are running to to God to running for Hope
running for truth because they're just comfortable enough to believe the lies and I think that's how I would
frame where we're at in the world um maybe even Beyond Christianity this is where we're at in the world um and
there's some things that that kind of lend towards that like I mean you go back to the the baby boomer generation
and you you look at how many people identified lgbtq type type
identification and you're looking at 1.5% of people people um today in our
genz we're looking closer to 30% um that's a that's a massive radical change
in what three three and a half generations of of how we see um things
like marriage how we see sexuality how we see gender radically different um and
I think that impacts how people see how God and and church speak into those
things and then also what how is how is the church how
is how are different denominations cuz you mentioned different denominations going to speak into those particular
social issues um based upon you know a framework of morality based upon a
framework of scripture um so we're we're in a place where there's I would say a
lot of deception but also a lot of comfort we don't experience in the Western World at least the amount of
discomfort I you know I grew up in a third world country for a number of years I lived in uh Cameroon West Africa
uh you don't know discomfort until you've been into third world country and you experience the the the things that
happened there and so I think there you know those two things play a role into where we're at as uh as the church MH um
we're comfortable enough but we're also we're living with a lot of deception you know it's interesting uh uh I don't know
if you guys have listened to all to Jordan Peterson but he's one thing he says is the closer you are to
Suffering The Closer you are to reality uhhuh MH and so when you say we're in a
position of comfort but we accept deception more MH it's because you're
sitting away from reality more does that make sense yep yeah it seems like and that also would be also is that part of
the Cycles in other words we move we're blessed because we are living more in
reality we are adhering to order things of of a an order from God more we be get
we get blessed for doing that as individuals as families as people and
and and then we move away from reality 100% I mean that's that's the cycle that
I'm talking about um you know H how quickly did the children of Israel who
had been rescued and led out of Egypt were they um they were suffering longing
to go back to the the leaks and the garlic of Egypt right but the Lord in his grace and his Mercy kept them on
this path of of redemption but you just fast forward a few years and once they
get into the promised land and they start to settle in um you get into the judges like the amount of complacency
and comfort that they at that point set in led to God having to really disrupt and tear down their the idols that led
to their complacency you see that again in the Kingdom of of Israel where they got so comfortable that God had to tear
down their Idols at the point of of Exile I don't think we're any different this day and age I mean it's so hard to
think about the overall state of Christianity in the world because you could slice it so many different ways what what I would say and I think what
Nate's even alluding to is like even in the American Church um we have gotten so
comfortable and I have conversations with so many of my Evangelical friends who believe that we are at a point of
God needing to tear down the idol of what cultural Christianity has become
because it has we've become anesthetized to our true needs and we've become numb
to our true uh um desires honestly because we we
conflate with some of these other things that we would consider successful church or some of these other things so yeah is
there is there a uh it almost sounds like you're describing something where because
you're talking about cultural Christianity where where that Comfort or that Idol eventually comes from a
collective does that sometimes compete then with a direct relationship with God
I think it always does yes yeah I I I think that the um the heart is deceitful
above all else who can know it you know this is what Jeremiah I think jeremi Jeremiah and we we are this is why the
Lord on the night that he delivered the children of Israel out of Egypt said I'm
about to do something crazy and here's what I need you guys to do and he institutes Passover the night
that he's about to deliver them from Egypt and that night establishes you will do this every year forever because
you will have such a tendency to forget of what I've done for you sure enough I mean we see that over and over again and
the Jews are constantly ring around Passover right same thing with the last supper I Think Jesus is about to do
something that's going to alter human existence on the night that he was betrayed and he says I'm instituting
this now so as often as you do it do this remembrance of me the Lord knows how prone we are to wander how prone we
are you know Come Thou found that that famous uh verse in Come Thou found to him we are so prone to wander we are so
prone to get swept up in other things the Lord knows that we need to be reminded I think it's his grace and his
patience and his Mercy with us to Institute things that will bring us back to him um because it does directly
compete with our relationship with him and and that's why when you're asking the question about
Christianity what are we talking about are we talking about the different
organizations that claim to be Christian are we talking about the individuals who claim to be Christian I answer that
question um probably talking about more about the organizations because it's easier to
quantify how the methodists or the SBC or even the Church of Jesus Christ L Saints is maneuvering through all these
cultural pushes and pulls and tugs at them but I'm more interested in getting to the individual soul and because to me
that's the real definition of Christianity the one who's been born again by the spirit of God um there
there are almost two separate questions for me the state of Christianity one is collectively what we call Christian in
the world versus those who have truly been born again by the spirit of God well doesn't the state of
Christianity help determine in a major way whether you're getting to those
individuals yeah but I mean it doesn't control your agency in terms of well I I this is my desire and I want to do I
want to spread the gospel and I want to help those around me but but as a whole if Christianity is faltering yeah there
you're going to have fewer individuals and those that are uh of a I'm trying to
find the right words that we both are going to agree on but it's that that those are it's going to be fewer people
and less of an attraction even perhaps to to those that are ready to hear the gospel I think it depends upon the way
in which um Christianity is being affected NE negatively because
throughout the course of of Christian history you have had the persecution
persecution of the church lead to a greater movement of Christianity and so
you don't have you know uh churches that are that are active and people are
showing up every week you you've got the church Going Underground and staying hidden and yet you've got like the
church in China today is exploding we know this there's no churches above ground you're not building any buildings
so it kind of depends on like how we Define like um what's happening within
the church I feel like there is a decline kind of a moral decay in the
Church of Church of Jesus in the western world uh and that's a whole different
thing than than the Christian Church being explod ly growing in China where you can't build a church if that makes
sense it does but it's it's and it's it's odd because you know Latter Day CH
the same way but you have you have a decay in the
west and and and the places of growth for all of Christianity are China the
Philippines Africa India India you know all these places where where many of
them have never even heard of Jesus to begin with but their circumstances are
closer to reality yes and the desire is there for something Beyond where they
are and Christianity offers that
um it's almost like the state of Christianity is
dependent on those other areas to keep booming isn't it well and
again how are we defining booming growth yeah okay yes so that's that kind of
gets back to the larger question of how are we defining Christianity because um in in the west where we've seen a lot of
organizational success or growth you know all these churches we were just talking before we started recording about some of the biggest churches in
America that have 100 plus campuses right yeah I mean organizationally there can be a lot of success but
um that again the conflation of an organizational growth versus that more
Heart level clearly spiritually fueled growth that's taking place in other areas um is what I think what I find
myself focusing on a little bit more as far as the state of Christianity is concerned because I I think you know going back to the thing you were saying
earlier about how there are some people who might even say like let's yeah make it get worse cuz you know maybe that'll
hasten the Lord's return um I half agree with that I I don't necessarily agree with it in the sense of like let's
hasten the Lord's return but I do agree with it in the sense of there there are
I think some pockets of Christianity that do need to feel the pain of suffering and all in order to filter out
some of the Riff Raff or the misfocus um I think it's it's the lack of
accountability and and going unchecked in certain areas of great Earthly success that you see toxic leadership
and moral failure and all these things going on where people are getting spiritually Shipwrecked and and all these other things um maybe those are
the areas that do need a little bit of a shaking and it does need to get worse um where there are other areas where we cry
out for the Lord's Mercy for our Brothers and Sisters in Christ in China who are up against you know losing their
lives if people find out that they're Christian so to me I'm I'm I still find myself driving toward what is going to
what needs to happen what is happening and what needs to happen for the true body of Christ to stand up and to
Proclaim who he is because I personally just don't think that the biggest church with the biggest mares with the biggest
headcounts are necessarily the greatest testimony of Christ I mean they can't they are in some ways but not not in
others Nate what what referring back to Jeff here what does need to happen and
what is happening then well I think we we find ourselves
very dependent upon the spirit of God um for his purification um and that that elicits a
response from us to Humble ourselves um under his mighty hand I think that's from what second Peter um that that in
due time he's the one who lifts us up but that the the way that that we
approach this is we're not we're not going to pull the church up by our bootstraps the the approach is a is a
humility of going uh we're dependent um and and this is seen throughout
Christian history in prayer movement um that we just see the church Gathering
going God we got nothing um we don't know what to do about the culture around
us we don't know what to do about the culture within us um but but we know you
do and so there's a there's a greater sense of dependence upon the work of the
Holy Spirit to purify and then to bring authentic growth and you know I think
that's a part of what could potentially be a shaking of of of the Christian
church is is like you see the you see the numbers you see the statistics and
and you see who's going to go okay we're going to we're going to go build more buildings we're going to you know and
and and not to say that building buildings are wrong uh having multiple campuses is not wrong um it all starts
with the heart you know you know God's very clear he he doesn't look at the outer stuff he looks at the heart this
is why he chose David over over Saul and you know David had an epic Kingdom too
it wasn't just you know David was this Meek mild David you know Saul killed a a
thousand David killed 10,000 like like he was a warrior but but at the same time it's like the difference is seen in
are we going to be people after God's Own Heart you know are we going to be people who humble ourselves
and go yeah yeah we're we're broken here um we and that's the first you know the
first step in anything that God is going to do through his spirit is is
repentance and humility and um and so maybe on on on some level
like the statistics say look Christianity is declining mhm but maybe
that's the beginning of Christianity being restored to another cycle of God's
manifold blessing and I'm not talking about like necessarily you know like the manifold blessing of wealth or or or or
you know the VIS the visual stuff but maybe it's the manifold blessing of just
people's lives being transformed you know there there's a famous apologist that years ago said
that the every human is Desiring to understand four areas of existence our
origin what is right and what is wrong our purpose and our destiny and um we all we all try to
crack the code of where did we come from why you know where did all this begin what is right and what is wrong like how
do we even know what is the right way to live um what is the meaning of all this
what is a purpose and where are we going and I think what can happen is where the Lord clearly through Christ answers all
four of those things and as a result of him fulfilling um Clarity bringing Clarity
speaking into that formless void of our wondering and provides Clarity we have
hope where we start to then jison or we we we we take different paths that are
not connected to Christ to answer where did we come from what is right and wrong what is our purpose and where are we
going when we go to any other source not only do we get get disoriented Ed on an
intellectual and I think an existential level but we lose the most important thing that all of us want and need and
that is hope hope is what Christ came to bring to the world so what needs to
happen or what is happening is I think that in some of those four fundamental Cornerstone areas of life we're trying
to redefine or reand or take matters into our own hands of of answering those questions what needs to happen is when
we connect all four of those things back to Christ not only do we gain Clarity even though it might be difficult but that's where
we have hope and I think hope is where um so many of us are are needing to um
remember that that's that's our calling you know as Heralds of Christ's gospel we are Heralds of hope so that also
reminds me of like how does truth work does it does it trickle from the top
down or does truth transform from the bottom up M and and it's probably both
and and so I think when you when you talk about those four things and I think
of you know the broader cultural worldviews that we're living in today um
I see culture moving moving closer and closer to or more towards less hope um
than than having hope and but that's also becomes an opportunity for the
gospel to bring hope right so that's that's an interesting thing because I do feel like we're in a culture where
there's lot there's a lot less hope mhm yet that's what also makes the gospel
message relevant yeah it's like I don't brighter light right it becomes a brighter light that than it would
otherwise because everything else is a darkening so much for people anxiety levels are going up depression levels
are going up and it's like well that's because the lights over here
and and you're not looking right it's like hope is dependent on on certain
order and and hierarchal structures that come from God and and I think that it's
otherwise what are you hoping for because hope is all you know it's future right it's like what are you hoping for if you're not hoping for something
that's absolute truth yeah right well and so then to that point we then have a
decision to make how do we face what is happening in the world how do we face
the state of Christianity as we're used to seeing it that seems to be changing well we can get super anxious about it
we can get super angry about it we can yell at the top of our lungs and scream
into the wind and protest and gatekeep and do all these other things which depending on our different passion
levels okay that's fine people are going to do what they need to do or we can all collectively those of us who are
following Christ see this as an opportunity to bring hope into that space like we have the power of the Holy
Spirit anytime we stand in the darkness and proclaim the light of of the truth of the Gospel so I don't I don't believe
there needs to be any consternation there can be grief and sorrow when we see how how many souls are being just
kind of wrecked by misguided truth and misguided hope but it's it's an amazing
maybe put it differently like based on our calling as those who are called to share the gospel it's great job security
for us when it comes to the the the call that Christ puts on us to speak that hope into this world we can very clearly
see where we need to speak that into the question is are we going to speak up yeah uh you know I think another part of
maybe an instigator of these cycles that you're talking about I don't know I guess it would go right along with what we're already saying but that would
be reaction to a very strong change in the culture so we talk about the 70s and
the 80s where Christianity starts to Boom a lot more um I I think it's a reaction to the 60s right so you've got
all these massive changes in culture of sex drugs and rocket roll you've got the pill that comes around you've got which
I honestly believe is the biggest change of all mankind ever I in my opinion but
it's it's it it it changed promiscuity completely right by removing
responsibility and but anyway it's it's a reaction to these things are we in a
time where or anything like that right now you talk about worldview there seems to be similar things
happening today that were happening back then 60 years ago where there were some
massive changes of culture I mean look at our identity even our own identity a gender these crazy things radical things
that need a response yeah I mean I think yes look
because you know before the 60s you know you talk about you have the' 60s and then there was sort of a pendulum swing
back to more conservative values in the 70s and ' 80s in the rean era right M then we get into the '90s and 2000 it
seems like things start getting a little bit more Progressive again let's rewind a little bit further the 1920s The
Roaring 20s which prior to that was this very uh Orthodox fundamentalist movement
in Christianity to get back and then World War I and World War II and all that's taking place and and then things
sort of congeal in the 50s and 60s which you have the perfect nuclear family and Christian values and stuff until the' 60s come along right so again we're
talking about Cycles here where are we at in the cycle well I I do think that we're probably in that
more Progressive we're going to jettison conservative values and all that other stuff I think it is possible that the
pendulum does swing back to I have Jin Z and Jen alpha kids and they're they're
so nonchalant about some of the things that we get super worked up about like the lgbtq stuff like we're like what is
happening right now like this this just seems like what is this our kids are like and and I'm not going to throw my
specific kids under the bus here but like a lot of even their friends are like yeah it seems a little bit um
beyond what makes sense to us but whatever like they so they're not
dealing with much of the shock value but it's funny because I see a lot of my kids and their friends kind of ring around more conservative values now
where they're they're not as um woke as us Millennials who get our feelings hurt
about everything they've got a little bit thicker skin are you going to make a joke to me right now cuz you're you're a Gen X I'm a gen xer so gen xer fellow
gen xer right here guys I feel ganged up on no but I think that it is within the
realm of possibility that once we kind of get this Progressive or however you want to call it this uh
Christian disorganization out of our system that we could things could settle back down
again I look at this as just another sobering reminder that we are broke we're broken and we are fractured and
chis is our rallying point every time and and I think the message that a lot of us in the evangelic world even so
many of my friends who are done with Evangelical Christianity in
America um and they've seen the toxicity in church leadership you're talking
about organized religion organized religion and yet they are closer to Jesus than I've ever seen them um I
think that it is possible for us to kind of get back to the basics of the Gospel
as we see what's going on in the world there's also something I'd like to add to that whole discussion about you know
kind of the Wayward 60s into the 70s what you what you had there in the
Evangelical world at least is you had this massive uh evangelism explosion um
through people like Billy Graham but even even other uh church leaders that
that kind of um you know created a catalyst for this missionary or even
just sharing sharing the gospel with your friends your family movement um or
church is starting to take up uh this kind of uh Evangelistic movement and what's what's so fun about these
discussions between evangelicals and Latter-Day Saints is that you got two of the the the biggest missionary cultures
ever you know in the history of the world you know kind of discussing and
digesting these things together um as to to like how do we respond I I think um one of the things
that that evangelicals um have to look at today is like how do we respond well to culture
how do we how do we contextualize the gospel within culture we don't change the gospel but how do we contextualize
it and and one of the things the Frameworks that I feel like um more and
more people are are are starting to to embrace is how do we live in
tension um because what happened in previous generations is it was like there was a lot of black and white you
know if you did if you didn't cut your hair a certain way you know you know the BYU Honor Code The Moody Bible Institute
Honor Code was more strict than the BYU Honor Code wow I couldn't go dancing man
you should have seen my shock when I first moved to Provo stepped on campus the first time I saw everybody ballroom
dancing I'm like I couldn't do that at Moody Bible Institute in the '90s but but but just like how are we going to
respond in tension um John chapter 1 it
says Jesus came um and he he he dwelt Among Us
which is probably one one of my favorite Christmas passages ever yeah and it says
he came full of grace and truth now you try to live out being fully
gracious and fully truth in the same breath in the same moment that's called
living intention and I think that's how we have to respond to the society if
we're going to if we're going to see um who we are as the expression of Christ
the light of the world the salt of the earth if we're going to see those things
in Christianity grow uh we we've got to embrace that that that that tension of
Grace and Truth um how we respond to the world around us that's saying you know
hey gender's fluid how do you do that it you live in the tension um you know you
you've got to live with the reality that that we want those people at church and
we don't want to push them away but we also know the truth that they need to
know the truth because the truth is what sets people free so how do you do that and I don't think the Evangelical world
did this well in the 80s and 90s and I I do believe that there was there's a bit
of a gift in the Progressive tolerance that we that that that we we've been
living through that that reframed how do we live in that tension so there were
too much truth and not enough Grace yes yeah 100% yeah one of the best sermons I
ever heard preached on how should the church respond to the lgbtq issue uh the
pastor his 40-minute sermon the point was stop being jerks okay like all right
we can we can obviously go to the scriptures and point to why we have a Biblical sexual ethic stop being jerks
okay that's that's not going to win anybody over it's not going to get through to anybody so yeah and and he's
saying that obviously because there is this this righteous indignation that can flare up in US whenever we see the
culture going in a certain direction maybe maybe rightfully so but when that leads to the mistreatment of others the
degrading of others the dehumanizing of others it nullifies the gospel it nullifies the gospel you're all truth
and no Grace who were the most dehumanized individuals in the first century been the prostitutes and the tax collectors those are the people Jesus
hung out with yeah yeah so yeah or at least went to I don't know he hung out with them but he dined with them he did
dine with them absolutely but I think obviously then even then you're singer he he's inv he's inviting them to the
gospel right but you've got the humanity the love for those to say I don't care what anybody else thinks I am going over
here and I'm talking to these individuals oh
