An Explosion of LDS Online Content - The Holy Rebellion

Travis Lish and Christian Williams of The Holy Rebellion discuss the exploding movement of faithful online content creators.

 Raw Transcript

All right, in this episode from the Holy Rebellion, we bring on Travis Lis and Christian Williams, the hosts of that
channel and account on YouTube and social media. They've got uh I think pushing 40,000 followers right now on
Instagram, and they do a great job of defending the truth, and they do it
through what they perceive as peacemaking. And they do a a great job of it. I really enjoy the conversation
we have as we talk about how things are growing, where things are going online, how to defend the truth, how to deal
with poisonous actors, and being a part of a movement that is brand new to us
over the last several years and that I believe is barely scratching the surface. Now, this episode is brought to
you by Go and Do Travel and the Gospel on the Nile cruise. We've got a couple of openings still in fe in March for
Gospel on the Nile. Not a lot, but there's still some left. If this is something you are interested in, then
now is the time to do it. Spring is a great time to go to Egypt. If you enjoy
the temple, you're going to learn more about the temple there than perhaps anywhere else except for in the temple
itself. The temple is all over the walls of the Egyptian temples and an
understanding of their ancient culture helps inform your experience in the
temple. To find out more to go to quickdia.com, cwycia.com, go to the top to trips and events and
scroll down to Gospel on the Nile. Here we go.
All right, welcome to Quick Show. My name is Greg Matson and I am your host. In this episode, we bring on the Holy
Rebellion, Christian Williams and Travis Lis. Welcome, guys. Thanks, Greg. Thanks for having to be
here. Yeah. All right. Happy to have you here as well. We're going to talk about several different several different subjects, but I want you guys to start off. How
did you guys meet each other and start the channels Holy Rebellion? the the holy rebellion. Th
this is like our uh you how you met your wife kind of story. I'll take it. I'll take the first half
this time, Travis. Perfect. Yeah. So, actually back in the day uh when we Travis and I were both really
poor, struggling students, I tried to be his financial adviser and uh it didn't
work because he didn't have any money. Wasn't making any money. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh I just really liked him
and we we became friends. Uh and then what's really cool is that Travis met his wife and married her. It turns out
his wife was my my wife's mission companion. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, they served together and so we
just had Yeah. We had some we had a built-in friendship into that marriage. Couple friends a couple friendship made in heaven, you know.
Yeah. So, you guys have been friends. Why did you start the Holy Rebellion? What is the whole the whole uh uh purpose of
what you're doing? Yeah. So we uh starting at from that point, this was probably four, five, six
years ago even, but we just kind of started meeting up at In-N-Out Burger and and we would talk about what we were
learning, opportunities we might pursue together. And over time, it became clear that the only thing our biggest mutual
interest uh was the gospel of Jesus Christ. Ultimately, all of our conversations would turn back there. And
on one occasion we decided we were it was when we were doing the New Testament uh for Come Follow Me and we were
talking about Paul and how Paul was just unashamed. He stood before kings. He stood before people who hated him. Uh
and he just testified. He just he shouted it from the rooftops. And we concluded that if we want to be like
Paul, we have to find the tallest rooftop we can find and shout from the top of it. And we figured that that was
social media. And we were the kind of guys who just like didn't have an Instagram, you know. Uh and so that was
a learning curve for us for sure. Uh you can go back and look at our early content. It was rough. It's awful. It was bad. Uh but for us,
the the origin of holy rebellion is we wanted to rebel against all that was uh
worldly, the false idols of the world. We wanted to rebel against contention. Uh we want to rebel against um anything
that pushes against Jesus Christ. Like so frequently the rebels of the world uh
you know they run away from God. Uh but uh in 2025 it's far more rebellious to
choose God than it is to run away from him. And so that's the rebellion that we're about. Uh anti-contention uh full
of love, full of hopefully full of the light of Christ. It's who we pursue.
Yeah. And maybe just to tack on to the end of this. So we we we started this channel and we were having conversations. They were like interfaith
conversations. They were actually great. I enjoyed having them. Nobody cared though. like nobody watched it, nobody
cared. And Travis and I were trying to figure out how we can reach more people and then separately but at the same time
this happened. Um I was in the temple trying to figure out like how okay I felt compelled to do this. How do we do
it right? How do we do it so that we can have some kind of impact? And I opened the Book of Mormon and I was reading and it just happened to be the story of
Ammon when he is a shepherd and he gathers and defends the flocks of the king. And that just it hit me like
lightning and I just I still get goosebumps when I say that just because it it was this deep experience for me
and it it was just that's it. That's what I got to do. I got to gather and defend the flocks of the king. So the
next day and Travis and I both had similar experiences. But the next day we both created um apologetics content
because we discovered that our faith is so often demonized, misinterpreted, presented
poorly online. In fact, I would say that's the dominant view. I I actually think in the church we have abdicated
our presence online to to a great degree and so our detractors and critics have taken that space and so we just saw okay
if we got to make a change this is where we have to make it and it's just been we've just seen miracle after miracle
since then. Now do you do you think that I mean it's
still we're still in a position where we are drowning in anti- Mormon content
online. Yeah. Now there there's been a huge change I will say even in the last six to 12 months of new voices coming out
and especially on on Instagram and Tik Tok that have been great and especially
a lot more female voices which is really nice and and that's helping but we're
kind of at the tip of the iceberg still on this. Where do you see this going
now? I mean have you guys you've now I'm looking here at your channel. You've got over 36,000 followers on on Instagram.
You're growing very quickly. Uh so you've journeyied through this to some
degree. Where do you see this moving toward and how are we doing?
Yeah, I I think the the big answer that is really exciting is uh we see we what
we hope and we pray for is that we are a part of the fulfillment of prophecy that
we and you included, right? that all of us as we as we embark on this journey of apologetics and spreading the gospel of
Jesus Christ that we're a part of the stone cut out of the mountain without hands, we are a part of the prophecy of
the marvelous work and a wonder that Isaiah saw. Uh and we the more people that we talk
to, the more convinced we are that the Lord is waking us up as saints uh and is
inspiring us to get into the fight. We joined uh it was February that story
that Christian shared when we first did our apologetics contest. So 10 months ago and uh since then we with you have
just witnessed so many people join the fight as well. And what we what we think
can happen uh Greg is uh our goal is 1 billion views per month uh collectively
as Latter Day Saint creators. Uh, imagine imagine a world where when you search Mormon or LDS or Joseph Smith
across any platform, what you would see is dozens of people proclaiming their faith and their witness towards them
rather than dozens of detractors. Like you said, we're drowning. Uh, but we we see and hope for a future where we flip
the script uh and we can control uh in large part that algorithm online.
Yeah, I think I think that that's that's going to require a massive change still
and and I think it's coming. I I think you're right. I think it is coming. Uh you know, I was at a uh I've told this
story several times before, but I was at a fair conference. Uh I think it was I don't remember if it was it was sometime
I think it was 2019 and it was the first time that a general authority had ever gone to the a fair
conference and it was it was a general authority 70 and I think it was I want to say it was
Elder Christensen it might have been Anderson but I think I think it was Christensen and he says he he takes some
Q&A after after his his presentation and one of the questions was well what about
how do we fight against all of the the uh name calling and and the uh corrupt
versions of what we believe in and the anti- stuff and you know how do we get our voices out there? Is it okay if
because back when I first started for example it was I got hammered hammered by orthodox members of the church saying
did the prophet call you to do this really you know were you supposed to do this who are you I mean that was I launched
it on every single episode I ever did and that was just eight years ago you said right
what's that that was only eight years ago you said right that was only eight years ago man we're glad you we're glad you paved
the way for us yeah yeah well It it was it was odd, right? Because I I'm I'm like fighting against this other side here and now I'm
now I'm fighting this side also at the same time. But what he said was really important and it really ignited me even
further was um he said, "Look, we I just left the a a meeting with the 12, the
corn of the 12 this morning, he said, and what they said was we need more
voices. We have to have more voices. the church can't do this and there are so many
things that others can do and say that we can't do and say
and so and then at the time he was talking about fair back then it was I think it was called Mormon interpreter not the interpreter foundation and and
uh maybe it was uh Book of Mormon Central or Farms I can't remember what which one it was back then but you know
he they mentioned a few organizations but then he said and then every individual that we can get with as many
voices is out there as possible. And I was like, boom. That just kind of gave me a further license to just go, I'm all
out, right? I'm all out on this and I'm going to do whatever I can. But it's
where where you want a billion views. You think we're going to get a billion views on this and be the top of the
search ranks, which are eventually going to be ChatJBT, not Google. And and and
that's what's going to come up, which would be really nice. Can you imagine going into chat GPT and saying, "Well, what did Joseph Smith think about
polygamy?" Or, "What did what did, you know, what was Brigham Young's point of view with not having blacks in the
priest at the time?" And having it mostly say Latter Day Saint content. That would be incredible.
Yeah. That's where it needs to go. That's what I view is that where that needs to go, right? Or at least both sides
or it's both sides at least, right? It's showing everything, right? And and so that would be nice to see at this
point. and and uh I I think we're on our way. I think it's I I think we still
need that real explosion of of voices and everyone needs to fight off the
spiral of silence. Did you guys experience a lot of push back when you were when you decided to take a more
apologetic view? Did you get a lot of push back from anti and did it make you uncomfortable? Were you what did your
wives have to say about it? What how did that go? Yeah, I I got to tell you, the first like 20 videos I posted put me in
fight orflight mode for an extended period of time. I had so much anxiety and then you go to the comments and all
of your fears are justified because you're just being torn to shreds. But
you know what's beautiful is Travis and I have discovered that um I I I think that the route to getting to a billion
views besides more people is the manner in which we the manner in which we present our faith online. And that's why
we were so in favor of being peacemakers. And that's kind of we want that to become standard across the board
because what's cool about that is what we noticed is that when we get hate online, there's just like this puddle of
darkness in the comments and then and then Travis just responds like, "Hey, thanks for showing up. We see it
differently. Have a great day." And then you just see this little glimmer of light. And you know, thousands of people read those comments and they just they
can see that contrast. And I I like to think of it, you know, in the beginning of creation, God separated the light
from the darkness. He called the light good. And we don't necessarily need to destroy the darkness. We just need to
create that contrast. And we do that via peacemaking online. And that's also what interests other faith in our content. So
when when the Orthodox and the Catholics when they see us engaging with Protestants and it's not just this typical brawl fest where we're just
smashing each other in the face, that could be one direction and we're just like, "Hey guys, it's okay. We can still
be friends." I that's how other faiths get engaged with our content. We actually believe that
this this is just the beginning of of a movement where the spirit's calling us forth and we wrap that in peacemaking we
can reach everybody. And and I would just add to the the big switch for us and Christian touched on
this but it was at first we felt like we were trying to convince or convert or at
least like calm down those who hate us, right? And so in the comment section, we
were like, we were going to battle, man. And and what we realized is we actually like the goal isn't to convert them.
Like Christian said, it's just to provide contrast because we're not talking to those who hate us. We're
talking to the people who maybe have heard a few lies about us, but somehow their heart is still open enough to give
us a chance. And so when we're responding to the haters, what we're really doing is we're
sending a comment to everyone else who's reading, we're not actually talking to the haters, you know what I mean? Uh,
and so we're looking past the hate. In a lot of ways, the hatred is a gift because it boosts us in the algorithm,
right? Uh, like Christian did a video a couple weeks ago about the law of chastity. It got like 190 something,000
views, but it was because he was responding to Alyssa Grenfeld. had had it not been a response to her, I don't
know, 12 people would have cared about the law of chastity, you know, uh but because there was hate first and
Christian came as a peacemaker, uh suddenly hundreds of thousands of people saw it. So, so we can ride on the back of the
anti- Mormons a little bit. Totally. It's a gift. It's a gift.
So, I feel like I'm a little bit of a Dr. Jackekal and Mr. Hyde on peacemaking.
Are you? because I will sometimes I just can't hold off and I take the gloves off
and I go. Most of the time, fortunately, the person who checks me is my wife and
she'll read all of the comments and she'll be the one to say, "You have to remove that comment." And so, I remove
it after she tells me I've got to remove it. But sometimes I just have to go out and, you know, it's like, "Are you got
to be joking?" But other times I I understand because I do a lot of interfaith work too. And so I understand
that that bridge building and the ability to, you know, my my whole podcast, for example, is is is has
always been built off of awareness. I'm not I don't feel like I'm much of an activist. I don't think I try to change things much. I've talked about
controversial issues, but I'm not asking for someone to be fired. It's I just want awareness out there. I want people
to be aware of something and to be able to articulate,
right, things. Have you been able to all these things in your mind and these changes in the culture and what's going
on and this exposure online to anti-ormonism and everything else? It's like can you articulate what you feel
and and put it into words and then what is your approach? Can you can you have your your testimony actually
strengthened from hearing something adverse to what you believe in and then
actually having a response? And that is another blessing of the anti- Mormons honestly is you you become resilient,
right? If if you're not going to give in to a cheap superficial argument,
you're you're going to become more resilient because things will have been put out. The sunshine is out on
everything. You see everything, but you see all of it and not just one side of it. So, I think that I think that the
whole anti- Mormon thing is really it can be a real strengthening to
members of the church if they can just stretch a little bit more with their faith. What do you guys think?
I it has been for us. I I actually know I think that previous generations and
and in my generation as well, there's a lot of people who have taken this approach that it's like I know it's out there. I just don't care. I'm not going
to look at it. The problem with that approach is their kids will because they're on Tik Tok and Instagram and
it's dominated by anti- Mormon content. It's secret lives of Mormon wives is literally everywhere whether you're in
interfaith circles or not. It's we are uh so interesting to the world and so
anti- Mormon material will be presented to your children. And so if you're not prepared to help them with that, where
are they going to get their information? And that's one of the reasons we started this is when they see Alyssa Grenfell, I
want them to see us right next to it so they can see that response that you can you can understand this, look at it in
context, and still come away strengthened with with with faith. And that's we can't really hide our heads in
the sand anymore. And I don't think that's an approach that works in the age of the internet.
Yeah. And I would So, it's interesting. There's two there's two types of there's two groups essentially that attack us
online. One is broader Christianity, right? and they attack us from a theological standpoint. Uh, and what I
have come to see from the theological, the logic and the reasoning behind our theology is, man, do we have an awesome
spot to stand on. We have very strong ground to stand on. uh and getting into
the weeds of I guess you might say like the debate of theology uh has done
nothing but strengthen my position and my testimony and witness of the restored church of Jesus Christ. Then the other
side are, you know, the exmos or or those who are critics of the church of Jesus Christ who they go after the
history uh and they try to poke holes in it. And and I remember when we got started with this, when we kind of went
the apologetics direction, I read the CES letter for the first time and I kind of, you know, took a deep
breath. That was sort of like the big scary thing that was out there. But um I
remember uh texting Christian at one point. It was after the Book of Mormon section. Uh, and I texted Christian and
I was like, that's the best they can do. Those are the like those are the holes they're trying to poke in the Book of
Mormon. And so, yeah, to your to your credit, uh, to your point, Greg, it was it was strengthening to me um, to see
the counterargument because the counterargument when you take the time to sufficiently investigate it, uh, is
pretty weak. It's pretty weak. And now I would I would say that at the end of the day like the digging into the history
and all of this stuff can strengthen your testimony and your witness and simultaneously uh it can't replace your
quest for Jesus Christ, right? It can't replace your your intention and your
seeking of faith and repentance. Uh, and I think sometimes the mistake gets made
where someone will dive head first full into the historicity of claims and
theology, but they actually forget to continue to seek to become a new creature in Christ. And that's where you
can get lost a little bit. But so long as you have your true north on Jesus Christ and on continuing to become a
disciple of him, awesome. Go explore. Go study. Uh, it's it's going to do nothing
but strengthen your position. Yeah. Now, you guys had brought up peacekeeping.
Uh what is peacekeeping to you? What what does that mean? I We've got talks
from uh now President Oaks, from President uh Nelson, of course, who
really brought this up. And we've got the scriptures and the example of Christ. And what is peacekeeping?
Yeah, I I would say uh so with peacemaking it a quick analogy that I
love is whenever we encounter a situation that is stressful or or scary.
This is familiar to everybody, right? Uh we we jump into a fight orflight response. Now when in this context of if
I come across something online that is offensive to my faith, I'm going to
respond in one of two ways. one, this is me, right? I'm I'm a flight kind of guy. I say, you know what? They're wrong, but
like it made me feel gross. I just want to swipe off, get it off my phone, and walk away. Uh, and that is akin to
looking at a battlefield and choosing to retreat. I'm not even going to engage in
that battle. Right? The other position is the fight response, which is I'm going to find the biggest club that I
can, and I'm going to go and swing it at these people. Peacemaking is what's in between and it
is choosing to charge into the battle, but instead of grabbing the club, you
bring an olive branch. And what that looks like is counter to every instinct
that you have in your body. Uh but what it is is it's choosing to view that person as a true person. Uh keep the
humanness in it and choose love. Uh we think they're wrong. Great. They think we're wrong. Uh the story doesn't end
there. What's more important is that we have a human connection with them. Uh like we said before, we're not going to
convince that person in that comment section where we're just rattling our thumbs uh to take a step towards Christ
unless we model uh the Prince of Peace. And if we can model the Prince of Peace
with that olive branch, maybe, just maybe, we influence them, but certainly we influence the people who are reading
in the comment section. Yeah. And and and Greg, you've probably seen this more than we have, but the
internet videos and comments section drops to the lowest common denominator
very quickly. And people are so used to being spit on that they'll jump in there and start spitting first just because
they know it's coming and then they just it's like this get in, get out, driveby. And what we discovered, I we actually
had this experience that uh this actually changed me fundamentally. We
posted some video, something about the temple. And some dude, username, new name, insert biblical name here, 897,
comments something sacred to us from our our temple experience. And he just drags
it through the mud in the comment se section. And my first inclination was like, "Where do you live, man? Where are
you at right now?" But you after I wrote and rewrote seven different things, I
think I finally found one to send. And it was something like, "Hey, man. that's sacred to us and we'd appreciate if you
treat it with respect and if you want to continue a conversation, let's let's hop in the DMs and we can chat about it. And
he did and he sent me a DM and we had a conversation and and I just tried to understand him and his position and it
turns out he was just he's actually a member who was struggling with his faith and in his marriage and he was just
terrified that his family was going to get torn apart and so he was lashing out and he just expressed all that to me and
then he apologized and then I never heard from him again. never saw him again and I I hope his life has been better. But through that experience, he
he he he spit, right? And he just expected to get it back. And when he s when he got some love and some decency
back, it just changed his whole paradigm and we were able to have a conversation. And it also helps to bring people
closer. Like because when you're talking to an avatar, they're not really people. When you bring them into the DMs,
they're closer. If you send a voice message, they're closer. a video, you're on a Zoom with them, they're actually real people again and you treat them
like real people. And so I think it's really important to attach those avatars to a human soul. It's like that per there's actually a person on the other
side of that keyboard out there. Uh maybe a really dumb person, but they
still are children of God and require love. And I just have to throw you a compliment, Greg, because a few weeks
ago you you had on John Delin on your show and other way around.
Other way around other way around. So you went to him, right? And you I think
into the lion's den. I don't know how I missed this. I'm going to have to go watch it. Yeah. And I just have to say like you
exemplified exactly a peacemaker in in that context. Uh I mean John is someone
who most Latter- Day Saints are very frustrated with uh and you you acted as a disciple of
Christ would. And so nothing but kudos to you. And if anyone wants an example of peacemaking, your host right here, he
just did it. Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that. I was much more Mr. Hyde than Dr. Jackekal in that.
But yeah, that that was that was the goal, you know. You know, interestingly, I went into that and it wasn't really
John that I was talking to until the end when I was really asking him questions about himself, but my thought on that
and this is maybe something to do with peacemaking is I wanted to talk to certain segments of his audience. That's
what I was looking for. Yep. Right. Because actually most of his audience is never most they've never
been members of the church. Really? They just find it entertaining to dunk on Latter-day Saints and people love us
and this bizarre stuff that they've never heard of before and you know whatever in our doctrine and history
etc. But uh you know there's a segment of those never
who are all they hear is the negative stuff. Yeah. Right. On that channel. So I wanted to
change that. That was one thing. And then the other is is those that do
tune in to him that are in a faith crisis. They're members of the church that are in a faith crisis. And so those
were kind of my my two segments there. I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to address this primarily to those two segments.
That's that was the purpose of even doing what I was doing." And there was a little bit of bridge building, I suppose, with John. I went to lunch with
him for a couple hours and and we've been texting and etc., etc. and I've
I've I've built somewhat of a relationship with him at this point. But so that I guess goes along with what
you're saying on on the peacemaking side, but I do have a question here on this is
not everybody's going to agree with you and not everyone is going to want to
follow truth. I I've I'm in the middle of a paper I'm writing which is uh there
in in in Egyptian there is a a concept called mat and mat
is peace and and what it basically is is it brings in into place order truth
justice mercy it's kind of like the whole thing is everything is balanced
right in this this concept ma another word for that by the way that they use that's very similar and and it talks
more of a description of this is nefer which means beautiful and complete. It's
very similar to perfect as it's used with uh the the Greek talos or tios
and it's what likely Nephi's name comes from. H and uh
you know like like for example he uses the the Hebrewism when he first writes you know I Nephi being born of goodly
parents that good is nefer right or or
in the in the in Genesis at the end of each day of of creation and I saw that
it was good well that's I saw that it was nefer I saw that it was complete right and uh
but if you look at that word And with Nefer, it it it's a very
similar Semitic. I'm getting into the weeds a little bit on this, but it's very similar to what we use. It's only
found twice on I think in the Old Testament is the word Nauvoo.
And it's uh it's it to me I think it's the same thing. Nefra and Nauvoo I think
are the same thing. And that is that means beautiful, right? How beautiful
upon the mountains are the feet of those that's that's where we get Nauvoo. That's where Joseph Smith grabs it from
is from Isaiah 52:7. And so you you this anyway this concept
that you find in ancient the ancient Middle East is very much about those
that associate themselves with that beauty and completeness and order and justice. And I think that we often times
as members of the church we have a very much a niceness culture. politeness seems to be our highest value sometimes
above truth and and we don't realize that peace and
everything that means and where it came from and I believe what Jesus meant by this is that is aligning yourselves with
a Zion mind to this truth and justice and mercy and
goodness and completeness and and so being peaceful is not saying
I'm going to open up the circle for everything. It's saying, how do we invite and
persuade righteously those that will come to the circle of that goodness and the way so
to speak of Christ? Does that make sense to you? Yeah, I I actually think that's
beautiful. I when I think about uh Jesus, there's that section in preach my gospel where it talks about the
attributes of Christ and there's, you know, charity, love, patience, uh
service, there's all these characteristics. And what happens is is if we exalt one of those above any
other, like to the top, we're actually out of balance. And it's the same thing like with my family. If I exalt my family over my
God, my life will be out of balance. and I'm actually giving things up by doing that. God actually has to be at the top.
But what happens with Jesus is he's not like one of those isn't above the other in
these attributes. He's he's the harmony and the integration of of all of those.
And so that's a great question. It's really difficult to do, but Jesus is is the way to do that. He's the path to
peacemaking because he's where all of those I mean, it's kind of like the cross. He's where all of those intersect.
Yeah. And one example, this is one of my favorite examples of Christ with peacemaking is um think of he just went
through the garden of Gethsemane and uh the band of of men come to arrest him
and uh Peter wages war. He pulls out a sword. Love Peter. Named my son after
him, you know. Uh Peter wages war and Jesus Christ stops him and he heals the
man's ear and uh I like that imagery is incredible to me. Uh and if we fast
forward to the end of the story or progressing along in the story, um Jesus Christ being a peacemaker in that moment
didn't save his own life, but it probably saved Peter's life and it likely saved the other 10
apostles lives. And I think that like the the imagery and the symbolism of what Jesus Christ
did in that moment is he says like I I am less concerned with me right now. And
I think the symbolism for us online is I'm less concerned with my ego right now. Like someone can like bludgeon me
over the head or call me whatever. Uh it's just like not going to affect me, right? Um working on that still. Um, but
like what I am going to do is I'm going to demonstrate Christlike love and
simultaneously stand for truth. And people might be offended by that. Um,
but uh it's creating that space that you talked about uh where people can at
least for a minute catch a glimmer of truth, a glimmer of that balance. Um, and so it's I think it's like Christian
said, it's clinging to the example of Christ. You think about that example, too. too. I mean, what comes to mind as you're
talking there, Travis, is is I'm thinking he Yeah, he did just come through an, you know, the most grueling
experience of all time. But think about how his bowels will were filled with
mercy at the time because of that. Isn't that crazy as well? Yeah. Yeah. So, that's Yeah. Anyway, that's
that's a great example of all that. You know, as part of that, I and I think you do this well. Part of that is
realizing, and I think Jesus Christ again exemplifies this perfectly, is that we're really all on the same team.
We we often look at the other side as it's them and us. And so there's this
division and there's this line where it's us versus them. And you see this throughout history, political divide,
religious divide, and it could be over any subject. And it leads to hell every single time. And if you think of the
countries who have had this you versus us mentality and taken that to the extreme, it never leads anywhere good.
And a few years ago I was reading um a bunch of World War II books and I came across Alexander Solja Nitsson and he
talks about the Gulag Archipelago and his time there and it was hell, absolute hell. And he came out of that
saying he he articulates it beautifully, but it's something like the line between good and evil doesn't isn't dividing
party lines and political parties, but it crosses every human heart. And it's it's like even the most evil
heart where that line is so far, there's still a sliver of good in there. It's like we we really all and we're actually
one of the few faiths that believe this. We are all children of God. Literally children of God who all have
the seeds of divinity within us and therefore potential to become like God. And so we are all on the same team. And
if we could just get rid of that, it's me versus the Protestants or me versus the anti- Mormons, it's like actually
that anti- Mormon is a son or a daughter of God who is on my team who's just, you
know, gone a different path. And so helping me I do I do this to myself. I just try and think, okay, they're
actually on my team. Treat them like a teammate. So I you can still stand for truth, but the manner in which we do it
is very important. Yeah. Yeah, it seems to me like in the in the premortal world,
those that chose to keep their first estate, there was probably a pretty big
agreement among all of us, right? Regardless of the circumstance that we're in, the time that we're born, the
place that we're born, we're I mean, that to me is charity, right? The whole thing is this bond of
charity for all of mankind. Uh that said, hey, what are we going to
do to help each other? how are we going to help get everybody back,
right? I I I can't imagine there wouldn't have been that sentiment among everybody there or most everybody there
at least that uh before we came down here. So, I I I appreciate that. I think that's great.
Now, you guys, what tell me about your content a little bit. What What first of
all, what do you like best about your content that you do? And secondly, what gets the most views?
Uh and those could be very different things. Yeah. Yeah. And they are. And um we what
we like most about our content is Christian's mentioned this has mentioned
this a little bit today and we we like to tackle the topics that uh might
instill fear or confusion in the heart of a member of the church. Uh, and we
want to take that piece of information and demonstrate that members of the
church don't have anything to be afraid of. Uh, history's messy. People are imperfect. Like that's it's old news.
Uh, but for people learning for the first time, it can feel scary and spooky. Um, we want to demonstrate
there's nothing to be afraid of. Uh there are logical and real answers um that are faith-based, but it they
demonstrate we we feel that our role as apologetics is to demonstrate that a person of logic and reason and sound
mind can choose faith. We don't have to prove the other side wrong. We don't
have to prove our side right. We just have to demonstrate, yeah, a reasonable person might choose faith even with all
of this historical context being considered. Uh and and so our the way that we go about that is is quite
enjoyable. We we pick uh videos that attack us and we try our best to defend
the church without ever being defensive to dismantle their arguments without dismantling the arguer. And uh we find
that the more we focus on that, we find joy in our content uh rather than anger.
And the tricky thing, and Christian, I'll let you jump on this too, is uh sometimes you'll pour your heart for
like weeks into a piece of content and then like 14 people watch it, you know,
and then you put together like a Spongebob meme and the whole world cares about it.
Yeah. Yeah. Have Have you noticed that, Greg? I was That's That was actually the only thing I was going to say is like I
recall I I want to see the Spongebob meme, though. That's for sure. It's so dumb. It's a or or I made a like
I poured my heart and soul into a video about the theological solve for the problem of evil and suffering that
our religion brings to the table. Nobody cared. Nobody cared. I I make a stupid
video about Utah dirty soda culture. Half million views. It took me like 10 minutes. I mean, what
is the internet? The best one you did Christian though was when uh he had this one where it said when people call me or
say that we're not Christians and you hold up your driver's license and he's Christian, right? And then it zooms away
and you're wearing the glasses. I got the glasses on. Yeah, I actually am Christian. So yeah. Yeah, that one it was Thug Life
playing in the background. That one did very well. Um sometimes it's the silly ones that people want to watch, but um
we we want to try to figure out how to deliver the meat, right? Not just the milk, the meat. And so trying to figure
out how to do that in as attractive a way as possible is sort of the riddle we we grapple with every day.
Travis, you said you wanted to defend the faith without being defensive. What do you mean by that? And why don't you want to be defensive?
Yeah. What I mean by that is when when being defensive to me is when
because they attacked my faith, I now have a desire to attack them. Uh
something that I've thought a lot about is is ego. And a a way that this represents for me, right? I've lived
this in comment sections for the last 10 months is that when we let ego or pride
creep in, I want to defend truth, but the ego comes in and I want to make them feel small while I do it.
And uh that's what being defensive looks like. It looks like I'm going to I'm going to make you feel small while I do
this. where defending faith doesn't require that. Um, we can be more mature
than that. But man, is it tough sometimes. We Yeah, we actually call this being a
window, not a mirror. And I I being a window, not a mirror. Okay.
And so I have a one of my favorite actually content creators. I I just love to watch him. Faithful creator. He does
a lot of TikTok debates and I think they're excellent. But one of the things he says is that uh I'm going to match
your energy. So sometimes people come out swinging. So he does the same thing and he kind of you know bear he he
wields the truth like a bludgeon and I don't think it's productive generally speaking and that's what I
mean by that. When on the internet we're taught to be a mirror. We just reflect whatever we get back at us. And so if
people are spitting we're going to spit. If people are throwing out insults that's exactly what we're going to do. So we allow ourselves to be a
thermometer rather than than a thermostat. And I think that the saints need to be a thermostat for the
internet. And again, that bringing that contrast of light and darkness, that's how we do it. We actually can't let them
determine how we act. And we can't lower ourselves to that standard. What we want to do, and Jesus says, "By your fruits
you shall know them," is we want our online fruits to resemble the name that's etched on our hearts. And so what
I mean by being a mirror, a window as opposed to a mirror, instead of reflecting the internet, we're going to let light shine through us like a window
would. That's the idea. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Finishing off here. You guys have got an event coming up on February
7th, I think, in Lehi, Utah. Tell me a little bit more about that and how can people find out about
it? Love it. So, we we'll drop a link here uh with the episode, but we uh on
February 7th, we're hosting the Peacemaker Summit. And for us, this is going perfectly full circle back to
where we started. We we feel that we are a part of a movement. Um we and we feel
that this movement is so much bigger than ourselves. We think that it includes every single person who's
listening to this. Anyone who who witnesses the war of words and tumultive
opinions that's online right now. If Joseph Smith thought he was in a war of words, uh he should see 2025. You know
what I mean? Like it is wild out there. And every member of the church, there's
a spot for you to come and help and join the fight. You don't have to be a content creator. uh to play your role.
In fact, the commenters and the people who are clicking the heart button have more power to get our content in front
of people than we do. And so, uh everyone has their part. This isn't just for content creators. It's for any
member of the church who witnesses the confusion and the mess that's online. We
want to rally all of us to the path of the goal is a billion views per month
across Latterday Saint content creators. And the process what we're going to talk about is peacemaking. What are the rules
of engagement for online peacemaking and how do we feel like that will open doors that nothing else could? And so come and
join us on February 7th. Christian, what would you add to that? Yeah, I think the only thing I would add and
it Greg you mentioned this that we need more voices. That doesn't necessarily mean you need to create content.
Although I imagine there are people listening to this who feel that pull and you should. You could just be somebody
who comments and maybe and if you do comment we want that to fall in the
range of peacemaking to create the contrast of light and darkness or you might be somebody who just lurks on the internet. But what we need though is
more members online. Uh we've heard that phrase, every member a missionary. That's never been more true than right
now because there's never been more power to disseminate truthful information. And I was just reading in
Moses 7, God talks about how he will sweep the earth with truth and righteousness as a flood to gather out
his elect from the four corners of the earth. This is it. Like this is the time. We've never had the ability to do
this before, but now we can. And every member can get involved. And it's as simple as just hearting messages that need to go to more people. And so come
and join us, be a part of this. We really just want to gather Israel online and we need more voices. We need more
help. Awesome. We'll put that link in the description. And then where can they find you? Where can the audience find you guys?
Yes. So we are the Holy Rebellion uh on Instagram, Tik Tok, YouTube, and most
recently X, uh formerly known as Twitter. Uh and so the Holy Rebellion,
the period holy period Rebellion. Um so find us wherever you listen to your content. Uh and look forward to seeing
you. Awesome. Great. Christian, Travis, really appreciate you guys coming on. Maybe uh we can do this again down the
road. Yeah. Thank you. We'd love it. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.